If you want joyful thanksgiving it better be a donut not coffee. Never did acquire the taste.

Man, wish you were here in H-town, I'd take you up on that offer.

Great post, great thought. Thanks!

the verses before those are also His will

No doubt! All the ones before, and all the ones after . . .

Great post...again. :)

I think we could all afford to hear this about once a month or so... Really.

I'll walk to Starbuck's. Just holler when in Tulsa.

As Will Hunting suggested, how about getting together for caramels?

Good word, Jared. You are the anti-Gnostic.

so~~~~I am just wondering...what is means to begin a personal relationship with Jesus Christ?

Nicely said, Damon. I'd just add a very few definitions:

"Sin" = all the stuff we do when we don't give God the respect he deserves, or hurt others, or put ourselves as a higher priority than God or other people.

"Blood sacrifice" = the fact that, although God is angry about our sin, for all the reasons above, Jesus himself (who is a part of God) took onto himself all the punishment and separation from God that our sins deserved, making it possible for us to be free of them and to know God again if we "repent" of them.

"Word of God" = the Bible. As it's quite big, and quite old, it can seem a bit complicated at first, but it's basically the story of the world (and the Jews) leading up to Jesus, and then the story of Jesus, and then the story of the first Christians and how they lived in this new relationship with God that Jesus had brought. Start with something like the Gospel of St Luke in the New Testament, if you're interested.

Hi Damon,

As stated above, we don't get saved by following rules - Christ paid the penalty for our sin. He has freed us from being slaves to sin so that it is actually possible for us to follow Him. That doesn't mean we are without sin, however. Althogh, the power sin had over us is broken, there remains indwelling Sin in us that tempts us to disobey God. But on the other hand, when you tell Christ that you want to follow Him, he places his Holy Spirit in you so that you have help each day in becoming more what God wants you to be.

As for your questions: If God is such a nice guy, why can't God just forgive everyone whether they accept Christ or not? Well, if God just let everyone come into heaven the way they are, heaven wouldn't be heaven, would it? You'd have to worry about getting mugged. But seriously, the real reason is because God is Holy. This is not a decision God made - to be come Holy. It is His nature. And He is Just. And He is Merciful. Put it all together and what do you have?

His Holiness requires perfection in our obedience. His justice requires that sin be paid for or else he is not really just. His Mercy caused Him to devise a plan to save us. A plan that would cost us nothing but cost Him everything. How can you argue with that? It is a pretty good deal. He sent His Son to pay for our sins on the cross. Jesus did not die for his own sins - he lived a sinless life. Therefore, was able to take on our sin and sacrifice His life to take our place.

As an added bonus, Jesus set an example for us in every way when he came to this earth. Even though he is God and could demand service, he served others. Also, since God actually became a man, he KNOWS what it is like to be tempted, to be lonely, to be despised, etc. You have a God who can relate to your feelings and understand you.

Regarding your question about who is sinful, the answer is everybody. But there is a difference, those who are in Christ, still have to fight against their indwelling sin which wants to assert itself through selfishness and putting outselves ahead of God and everyone else. But those who don't know Christ and don't have the Power of the Holy Spirit in them, are slaves to sin. They may not struggle witht he same sins as you, but even a clean-living business executive if he doesn't know Christ is going to be looking out for #1 all the time. Even his charitable endeavors are going to be for some sort of personal benefit - whether for admiration, business contacts, or even trying to earn salvation. The only way to salvation is through accepting what Jesus has done. And when you do that, he will start to change you to where you can finally overcome the desire to look out for #1 all the time and start to truly love God and others.

Good luck on the journey! The first step is admitting that you are a sinner in need of God's salvation. Then put your trust in Christ alone for your Salvation - not on your own works. Then start spending time reading your Bible (Especially the New Testament for starters) and just talking to God each day. Join a church where Biblical Christiantity is preached. There are a lot of churches that sound Biblical but really put a lot legalism on people instead of trusting in Christ alone - stay away from those. Finally, remember that we all are at different stages of our spiritual development. Don't be disillusioned if someone wearing the title of "Christian" let's you down somehow or is a hypocrit. Find some mature believers in your church to help you to grow in Christ and I promise you will be setting out on the adventure of a life time.

And apologies to Damon, too. You must have been wondering what you said that caused me to launch in to that...

To set the record straight: Post #18 was meant to be addressed to ECHO not DAMON.

Virgil,

Your response is interesting, however I disagree with your conclusions. While I can't explain all of God's way (or even a small portion of them!) - such as why he didn't send Jesus right away - I don't doubt his ways as revealed in Scripture. Before I became a Christian I didn't understand the need for Jesus' atoning death and resurrection. Now I can glimpse, with blessed understanding that only comes from God, the depth of this amazing, sacrificial act of love and rescue. And while I don't claim to have a full understanding yet, I agree with what Damon wrote. God is holy. Sin is seriously wrong. But since Jesus took on the sins of the whole world we are free to once more be in relationship with God, and we are free to forgive one another as God has forgiven us.

Regarding the new commandment - yes! "To love one another as I have loved you" - well said. But when we understand that "I as I have loved you" includes going to the cross, this takes on a whole new dimension!

I'll let Damon answer the question you posed to him about why God didn't send Jesus right away (if it was a serious question :-) but I do want Echo to know that from the very start, from Genesis 3 on, God has been at work reconciling the world to Himself.

All - feel free to expand on or correct what I ahve written.

Echo and Virgil - your presence here is much appreciated.

Virgil and Echo,
Virgil asks a good question, "why can't God just forgive sin without requiring punishment?" Why can't he just say "You're forgiven" after all, we're expected to do that, right?

The difference is that God is the holy, righteous and just judge of the universe.

Imagine for a moment a police officer who witnessed a mugging and decided not to cross the street and stop the mugging. Would that be a good police officer? No. You couldn't argue that he was being loving to the crook because he allowed sin and harm, and he didn't fulfill his office. He would in fact, be a bad police officer.

Imagine also a judge who has his neighbor's son in his courtroom as a defendant. The man is clearly guilty, but the judge likes him and even watched him grow up. So he says, "Not guilty. You can go free."
He would be an unjust and corrupt judge if he did that.

God as righteous and just judge of the universe has to punish sin. If he didn't, he would be corrupt.

So doesn't it make him corrupt to require innocent blood? Not if it's his own.

By substituting himself, God satisfied both parts of his own character-
As judge, he punished sin.
As a loving heavenly father, he provided a way for his children to be forgiven and be restored to relationship with him.

One of the best stories I've heard that illustrates this comes from Southern Seminary professor Jess Moody.

When Jess was a teenager he was involved in a moving violation in his small town. His father, a stern man, was the local judge. Young Jess was taken before his father the judge. After the police officer's testimony that clearly proved the boy was guilty, his father pronounced his own son guilty and gave the punishment. A fine in some dollar amount.

If the father had done otherwise he would not have been a just judge. He would have violated his office to just forgive the crime from the bench.

Then young Jess's dad got up from the bench, walked around to stand by his boy, took out his own wallet and paid the fine for his son.

This is what God did on the cross. By punishing sin, he provided a substitute himself, so that we could be free of the power and penalty of sin.

hi everybody,
Firstly,The dawn Treader, thank you very much for your suggestion of how to start a Christian walk.
De,Shrode,and also thanks for all your statements which makes me clearer on that point--why innocent Jesus sacrificed? to summarize is:
--"God has freed us from being slaves to sin so that it is possible for us to follow Him."
--"Jesus took on the sins of the whole world so that we are free to once more be in relationship with God, and we are free to forgive one another as God has forgiven us."
--"By punishing sin,He created a substitute Himself,so that we could be free from the power and penalty of sin."
Nicely state!
Here's another question when i am reading the Bible(maybe sounds a bit silly)--As God is the creator of the whole universe,He created everything within a week,then who created Him? Since there was not a living thing in the universe, Where were God from?--it just seems a bit mysterious for me.
Virgil,i appreciate your sharp mind by proposing different opinions. Yeah,"How can the Holy God created the gross imperfection,if He is all-powerful and loving ,why he created such a world(alot of people suffering from death,cruelty...) I am also wondering...
(one more little thing, Virgil,"God gets a bum rap".here what is a bum rap? I just want to know the literal meaning,and it would be better if i am told what it means by saying that, thank U!)

Echo wrote:
Here's another question when i am reading the Bible(maybe sounds a bit silly)-As God is the creator of the whole universe,He created everything within a week,then who created Him? Since there was not a living thing in the universe, Where were God from?-it just seems a bit mysterious for me.

It's actually not a silly question. It's a good one. I have been asked this question many times. It's normally phrased this way: "Who made God?"

The answer is no one. You say that there was no living thing in the universe in the beginning. It's true that there was no physical living thing...

But Genesis 1:1, says "In the beginning, God..." in other words, in the beginning of material creation, God was already there. He was there before anything was made. God has always existed.

Think about it this way - dominoes. If you set up a row of dominoes, and push the first one, it knocks the second one down, and it knocks the third one down and so on down the line, right?

So we look around at the material world around us and see that everything has a cause. And those causes had causes. And those causes had causes, and so on all the way back.

The problem is that unless you believe that matter is eternal (and it's not. Ask any scientist.) you cannot have eternal regression. Matter had to come from somewhere. There had to be a beginning. There had to be a first cause. Someone had to push that first domino. And that someone or something, had to be itself, uncaused.

I believe that someone is God. He is the uncaused cause. He has always existed. And the only thing that could exist before matter, would be spirit...again, that's God.

I know, it's hard to get our little minds around, but philisophically and logically, it actually makes sense. If you want to explore these ideas further, let me know and I'll point you to a few good articles.

So tell me honestly if you are satisfied with my answer, or if you want more info... Every honest question deserves an honest answer.

Echo wrote:
Virgil,i appreciate your sharp mind by proposing different opinions. Yeah,"How can the Holy God created the gross imperfection,if He is all-powerful and loving ,why he created such a world(alot of people suffering from death,cruelty") I am also wondering"

I too appreciate Virgil. Since your wondering this too, Echo, did my response in comment 27 help at all? I tried to be brief, but if you need elaboration let me know... God didn't create suffering, death, and cruelty by the way. We people caused all that. Sin is the reason for all that. He created people. And we chose the way of evil...

So how is God good? Because he has a plan to destroy all that pain, suffering, death and cruelty. It won't last forever. (Read Revelation 21:1-8)

By the way, Echo, what kind of Bible (translation) are you reading? Is it in modern, understandable, normal English? If not, then you need to get one that is.

Echo wrote:
(one more little thing, Virgil,"God gets a bum rap".here what is a bum rap?

I'll let Virgil answer for himself. And he needs to. What he means by "bum rap" is a valid question.

But my guess is that by "bum rap", he means the Bible is unfair to God by portaying him poorly. So in other words Virgil thinks that the Bible paints the picture of a bad god, and that his own version of god is better. But I could be wrong. (What I don't know is if by "better" he means "more accurate". I'll wait for him to answer my query to him above to define his own god-concept and where he gets it from, if not the Bible.)

What say ye, Virgil? :)

Hi Shrode,

You have a wonderful spirit and I appreciate your interest in dialogue. And I'll try to respond to all your inquires as best I can (and always with love and respect).

First, let me say that I choose to think for myself -- and I value my best thinking just as I value the thoughts of Abram and Moses and Peter and Paul -- as well as Oprah and Einstein and Echo and Billy Graham. I observe the ideas of everyone, whether verbal or written, but ultimately, I must decide what it is that I believe. But this is true of everyone! The difference is that many accept the thinking of others as being more reliable than their own -- or that if it's in the Bible, it's gotta be true and I must be wrong.

The many authors of the Bible have provided us with their best understanding of the times in which they lived, be it regarding history, prophecy, teachings, principles, morals, relationships, etc. But you and I are doing the same thing -- we come up with our best understanding of life and God. Sometimes, my understanding may not have been realized through the words of the Bible at all. On the other hand, my understanding is often derived from the Bible, but interpreted metaphysically (beyond the literal) or symbolically (actually, all words are but symbols). Truth is wherever you find it -- sometimes in the Scriptures and sometimes not.

I originally posed the question about the Bible because I have come to realize that Christian evangelicals or fundamentalists have an intimate, though legalistic, relationship with the Bible, even to the point of worshipping it. To some (in the past) I have asked this hypothetical question: If you could have a relationship with God or the Bible, but not both, which would you choose? They usually became discombobulated or disoriented. Why? Maybe it's because their true faith is not in the Spirit (which they cannot see or touch) but in the Scriptures (which are much more tangible or real for them). Take away the Bible and you have taken away their God.

I'm not afraid to declare that what is written in 'holy writ' may not be Truth, which brings me to the bum rap that God gets. Yes, a bum rap is an unfair treatment, in this case, on the nature of God. But its not the Biblical writers that are at fault. They are presenting their unique understanding. It's tradition that has made it a sin to question the Bible. If one begins from the premise that the Bible is holy and inspired by God, then anyone who challenges the inerrency of even one verse of it is considered sacrilegious, a heathen. Yet even Jesus was chastised by the elite for challenging the traditional understanding of their sacred Jewish Scriptures. It should be considered healthy to question the validity of a scriptural passage, not a sin against God or Christianity.

Did God inspire women long ago? Yes! Does God inspire men today? Of course! God is always inspiring us continuously, but not necessarily through reading or studying the Bible. God is for me as close as breathing and is at every moment guiding and inspiring me -- not in my mind, but in my heart. It's up to me to simply be receptive to the experience of His loving Presence. Was this not the relationship with God that Jesus modeled for us all? Was not his prayer that we would all be interconnected with God and with him? But what was his authority, we ask? Was it just a fantasy of his mind? Was it really a scary thing he came up with -- that God was his Father? Did he create a God-concept in his own image?

Now concerning George Washington. You are correct. Our concept of him is totally dependent upon what we read in our history books. But who wrote them? Would a slave in the 18th century agree with our writings about him? Would his wife agree? Would he? We discover in his diary elegant prayers in his handwriting. Did he originate them or did he copy them from another source. I have no idea! I have no basis for believing that I know the real George at all.

So do I know the real Jesus? Do you? Did Paul? Actually, Paul never met Jesus, never studied under him, never wrote about the miracles or healings or teachings of Jesus in his many letters, and probably never read any of the gospels. Yet his non-Jewish form of 'Christianity' is the version that has become accepted as authentic. What was his authority? Was it more reliable than mine? I wonder if Jesus would have accepted Paul's rendition of who he was? We don't really know. But I know that Paul's experience was valid for him, that Shrode's experience with Jesus is valid for him, that Echo's Jesus is real for him, and my Jesus is real for me. Halleluyah!