"The most important aspect of Christianity is not the work we do, but the relationship we maintain and the surrounding influence and qualities produced by that relationship. That is all God asks us to give our attention to, and it is the one thing that is continually under attack.
"
- Oswald Chambers, My Utmost For His Highest
Friday, February 27, 2004
I don?t spend a lot of time boob tubin? because we don?t have cable television (and probably never will), and Brandi and I have developed a healthy hatred for just about everything on network TV. Admittedly, when the tube?s on -- and we?re too petered out to actually turn the thing off, or if we?re mildly curious about the performance being played out before our not-so-eager eyes -- we?ll take in a program every now and again. Naturally, over the years we?ve seen shows like ?Yes, Dear,? ?King of Queens,? ?The George Lopez Show,? ?Everybody Loves Raymond,? etc.
What all these stupid programs have in common is that they all make the husband look like a complete imbecile. Here?s the typical story line: the husband does something stupid, and he tries to cover it up; the wife spends about 10 minutes digging, and she finally uncovers her husband?s stupid deed; the husband and wife have two minutes of ?witty? dialogue; the husband finally admits he?s wrong, and he throws in a corny joke; the husband and wife kiss and make up (and, usually right about now, the wife will throw in a corny joke of her own); the now-happy couple prepares to repeat the process for the remainder of the season.
How original.
Oh, yeah, I forgot to mention the half-hour we just wasted was actually packed with about twelve minutes of advertisements for products we were either going to buy anyway or don?t need at all.
Back to my point: those ignorant programs completely try to make husbands look like morons! I?ve heard my best friend often talk about how motion pictures try to make stay-at-home dads look like bumbling fools, and I think the same thing is done, week after week, on network TV. The only difference is this time the target is broader than just stay-at-home dads.
Personally, I?ve had enough of that foolishness.
*Update* One disclaimer: I'm not a "TV is evil" guy (otherwise we wouldn't own one). I just think that 98 percent of what's on TV is trash. It's like there's nothing but Ding Dongs on TV, no filet mignon.
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Comments on "< tongue-in-cheek > Everybody Should Hate Raymond (and the rest of his ilk) < / tongue-in-cheek >":
2. Jared
- 02/28/2004 3:16 am CST
I agree with you, man. (Except for your inclusion of "King of Queens" and "George Lopez." We watch Lopez weekly, and that show rocks. Queens I catch ever now and then, and while Doug is obviousy "bumbling," he's not a dad.)
But this family does hate "Raymond." Family sitcoms have formulas. There's generally no getting around that. But "Raymond" takes that formula and gets so formulaic, you can practically use the same plot synopsis for every episode.
And it's not really Raymond who chaps our hide. His wife Debra is a grating harpie. I just don't buy the "hate your husband the whole episode and then at the end you love him" schtick. Lame.
Also, where are the kids. They're nowhere to be found. They only trot them out when they are integral to the storyline. These kids are window dressing, and the family rarely spends any time with them.
But, yeah, good points throughout. Television hates fatherhood.
What's weird, though, is that if you look at Disney movies, you'd think motherhood was under fire. Think of how many Disney movies don't have mothers or have wicked stepmothers. It's always single dads or something.
I predict: Bill get steamed about us slamming "Raymond.";"0
5. Bryan
- 02/28/2004 3:35 am CST
I completely agree with the common theme that the male (most often a dad, but not always) can never learn that lying is bad, covering up the lie is worse still, and not following the lead of the wife and/or kids is worst of all.
The "Friends" do it. Jim Belushi does it. Ray, Doug, Damon (is that his TV name too? That's another TV comedian crutch that drives me crazy -- same-named characters), Those two dads from that other monday night CBS show, the dad from Still Standing, Charlie & his brother from their tripe, and several others, including the male leads from Will & Grace, Grace and Karen.
6. John O.
- 02/28/2004 3:42 am CST
Of the shows mentioned I've seen 'Raymond', but not in the last couple years. I have to confess that the times I have watched it I've usually had some pretty good laughs and enjoyed myself. I share Bird's concern about the dumb dad formula (was Tim Allen the father of this genre?) but I'm not quite ready to hate Raymond. Bird makes me start to wonder why this formula (over-used as it is) is so successful. What need does it address? I'm not sure, and my first response doesn't really answer the question. The appeal of comedy generally speaking is the tidy resolution of problem(s) and the happy ending. One of the things we may like about Raymond is, after all the goofiness, at the end of the show he and his wife snuggle up in bed, and if they're not completely reconciled at least they're still together. So we get to laugh and be comforted at the same time. My guess is that if the dumb dad formula consistently delivers these two things it will continue in use. But Bird is not laughing, and his question is more specific: why is the dad always the dumb one? Comedy lives by flaws, foibles, errors, and misunderstandings; it needs someone to be dumb. I can't think of a dippy tv mom off the top of my head (though Lucille Ball comes to mind), but that might just be because I watch even less tv than Bird. I just wonder..throwing it out for consideration... could there be a latent chivalry at work here? We are accustomed (by the rules of the dumb dad formula) to laughing WITH mom. Is it harder for us, for whatever reason, to laugh AT mom?
7. Chris
- 02/28/2004 4:03 am CST
(was Tim Allen the father of this genre?)
Well, yes and no. To me, it's a bit different when Tim Allen does this because, to a certain extent, it was a part of his schtick when he did stand-up comedy in his pre-Home Improvement days. He spoke, in a self-deprecating manner, about how men often make themselves look stupid without any help from the "fairer secks," as it were. I'll willingly lump myself into that category, and so will Jennifer. It's the constant undertone that "males are morons" that pervades TV that I'm taking issue with.
8. Jared
- 02/28/2004 4:26 am CST
Did we watch the same Lopez epidsode last night. I watched it and, while he was his usual self, didn't detect any of the obvious dopey-dad stuff you are trying to demonstrate here.
He wanted his son to have a good tutor. Yes, this affected the daughter, but not because George was stupid. And later, he had a heart to heart with his daughter.
I think that, in general, the show demonstrates that George is a hard-working man who loves his family and is trying to provide for them. And given the cultural context at work, it is pretty groundbreaking. What was the last Hispanic middle-class sitcom you can think of?
I think it's a great show in that, not only does it crack me up, it is about a rarely depicted minority (who are not really a minority, especially where the show is set -- California) making a better life for their children than they had.
I don't recall ever thinking George was dumb, still less that his wife lorded over him or whatever.
Ray, on the other hand, is a passive weenie, and dumb to boot. His wife effectively hates him the whole episode, as well as his family. The message of Raymond to me appears to be that men are stupid and women are hateful.
9. Daniel
- 02/28/2004 4:36 am CST
I agree with the perception of fathers on TV. However, I think the biggest gripe is that the shows are formulaic. Homer Simpson is a bumbling fool too (no different than Raymond in many ways - both love their families). It's just that The Simpsons is a smarter show. Personally, I like both of them. I'll agree to most of your points but I don't hate Raymond. It's a funny show to me. Yes, I get a little aggrivated by Debroah's harping but I think the real point of the show is the family dynamic - having the WHOLE family living so close to one another.
Just my opinion.
11. jen
- 02/28/2004 5:10 am CST
I watch less and less network television. Most of what I watch is on cable. Say what you will about the depravity of a lot of stuff on cable, the reverse is the quality of the programming too. It's a trade off.
12. Bird
- 02/28/2004 5:15 am CST
Rod, you're right about Lopez last night. He wasn't as idiotic as he sometimes can be I guess. I'll have to admit, though, it seems like he's always clueless, like he's got a clueles aura about him. The first Lopez ep. I saw was one where he threw away one of his wife's heirlooms and they went through the entire idiotic forumula. I guess it put a bad taste in my mouth because it was the first ep. I'd seen and it was, IMO, very Ramond-esque. I completely agree with you on the cultural stuff, etc. I did notice that and I think that's certainly a good thing.
13. Bill
- 02/28/2004 5:47 am CST
I think you just like what you like and don't like what you don't like.
Homer Simpson is a far bigger idiot than Raymond will ever be. I would agree that the Simpson's is a smarter show as Daniel noted (I personally like the Simpsons), but I think, Bird, that you just don't like Everybody Loves Raymond - and you're enobling that dislike with your take that it's somehow hurting our society :-)
I have a big problem with the shows all the hep people like - like Friends and Seinfeld - because they depict gratuitous, non-committal and low-consequence sex frequently. And - in the case of Seinfeld, the main four characters are absolutely amoral. I think that's a horrible thing to show teens. But those shows get rave reviews. We've even got a Seinfeld blog on our blogroll.
But it's funny - so we're all for it :-) We like what we like.
I just wish people would quit bashing Raymond. I agree that it's formula, and it prepetuates a stereotype that's not good. But at least it's clean - we watch it sometimes as a family. I hope my kids can separate Raymond from me. I think they can.
Just my two shekels.
14. Bird
- 02/28/2004 5:53 am CST
I think, Bird, that you just don't like Everybody Loves Raymond - and you're enobling that dislike with your take that it's somehow hurting our society :-)
Actually, the few times I've seen Raymond it's been relatively funny, but it's all been the same formula. On top of that, the show DOES depict Raymond as a complete idiot, maybe not on par with Homer Simpson, but still . . .
Let me say this, the point of this post was not to slam one particular show, but to point at the fact that, generally speaking, these shows often times portray husbands/dads as idiots. I mean, Bill, do you deny that Raymond is often the idiot of the show? (I know his brother is dumber than he is, and his dad . . . .)
Bill, I agree with your short take on "Friends," et al.
15. Bill
- 02/28/2004 6:09 am CST
Bird, I agree with you that Raymond (and many other shows) portray men as idiots. I think even Cosby did - his wife was obviously more on the ball. My Big Fat Greek Wedding did (the mom was the real power in the house, not the dad). In fact, I'm trying hard to think of a sitcom in the last 30 years where the man, to one degree or another, wasn't portrayed as week. So, yes, it's a problem.
But I don't think we as a society are ready to laugh at moms. And I think that's a good thing. We have to laugh at somebody.
Let me say this, the point of this post was not to slam one particular show
Well, you could have picked a better post title 8-)
And - comedy reflects truth. Maybe if men in society were a little more respectable (I place myself in this pot as well) we wouldn't be so easy to laugh at.
My take wasn't really against what you said, but I see a double-standard. If a show is smart and funny, we like and support it (even if it's objectionable).
17. Bill
- 02/28/2004 6:11 am CST
Re comment #16 (which was re comment #15)
ARRGH!!
I MEANT to say that should be "weak", not "week"
I'm an idiot. Just like Ray ;-)
18. Bird
- 02/28/2004 6:16 am CST
My take wasn't really against what you said, but I see a double-standard. If a show is smart and funny, we like and support it (even if it's objectionable).
Thanks, Bill. I actuall object to other shows like Friends more than I do to shows like Raymond, but this post was about the Raymond genre, that's why I didn't touch those other shows.
Also, how do you like my title change? 
20. Jared
- 02/28/2004 6:39 am CST
I thought the losing the heirloom thing was a funny ep. I think the fundamental difference between the two shows -- not that that is what your post is about -- is that I really believe Carmen loves George. I rarely, if ever, believe Debra loves Ray. Sorry, but that's my perception. And Becky's as well. She's constantly thinking the show makes Debra a complete bee-yotch.
When I think of Debra and how she treats Ray, I think of my "Joyless Women" post, the first piece ever posted on this blog.
I just don't buy it.
And it's not that Ray is dumb. It's that he's weak and a doormat.
I TOTALLY don't see how this is anywhere close to Cosby. I watch the Cosby re-runs every day when my girls are napping, and have seen the entire season more than once. Does Claire ever get one-up on Cliff? Yes. But Cliff is NEVER shown as incapable as a parent and husband (except when it comes to fixing stuff -- and Claire would NEVER call Cliff an idiot). Cliff is smart and wily and there's plenty of episodes where the family tries to pull pranks and trick him and what-not, and he always comes out on top.
IMHO, "The Cosby Show" was the last sitcom to really honor and revere fatherhood. (A lot of that had to do with Bill Cosby's feeling that "black shows" were too "minstrel-ly" at that time -- and they've only gotten worse).
And, Bill (Roberts, not Cosby), it's not about what is funny or not (for me, anyway). I've never denied "Raymond" was funny. I've laughed at it. I still watch the late-night re-runs from time to time. So it's not that I just think "Seinfeld" is funnier than "Raymond" (although I do think that). I thought Seinfeld was not only better written but it was original in every episode. It was NOT formulaic. If anything, it was groundbreaking in that it was a show about nothing.
And, I think they actually acknowledge the amorality of the characters. They are constantly at dead-ends and the show always nods that this is because they are not "good people." In fact, it was Larry David's bright idea that the only fitting ending for them was to all end up in jail, all the people they'd stepped over and treated unkindly trotted out as witnesses against them. The finale basically said, These people lived selfish lives, and this is what they get. (Of course it wasn't all hoity-toity about that point -- it is a comedy, after all.)
So it's not about the funny with me. It's a little bit about the writing.
But "Raymond" just hits a nerve with us, I guess, that it doesn't hit with others. We know too many wives who snip at their husbands and treat them like morons and who resent their kids to think ELR is the great comedy everybody seems to think it is.
Plus, are you sure it's all that clean? I seem to recall plenty of sex talk on the show. Plus Robert "living in sin" with his fiancee and all that.
Just sayin'.
I agree with the main point that we just like what we like.
21. Bird
- 02/28/2004 7:06 am CST
I rarely, if ever, believe Debra loves Ray. Sorry, but that's my perception.
I haven't seen enough of these shows to make a judgement on this either way.
But Cliff is NEVER shown as incapable as a parent and husband
I agree. I saw Cosby all the time as a kid and I got the same impression.
22. Marla
- 02/28/2004 9:06 am CST
Haven't seen that particular show since we don't have cable or antenna (just VCR/DVD) since I grew up in a home where the TV was on 24/7. But I know what you're talking about--the media (entertainment industry included) is full of stereotypes and Hollywood types (the people who make these shows) are about as removed from middle-class suburbia as we are from them. Go figure...
I have to jump on the Seinfeld bandwagon because I totally agree with Jared. I cringed at all the sexual innuendos (except for the pool/shrinkage thing--that made me laugh!), but the "nothing" element was so honest. It totally depicted our depravity, as well as our humanity (the little things we think about but don't say that aren't necessarily bad). And Kramer...well, no one can top him...of course, that's just my sense of humor...I love quirky people.
Jared also mentioned something about the "evil stepmom" scenario. As a stepmother myself, I really resent those portrayals. What's ironic is that growing up, Cinderella was my favorite fairy tale...and later on, when my dad remarried, I despised my own stepmom (unfortunately she lived up to the reputation). It's hard enough for me trying to figure out my role with my stepson (he's with us on the weekends) without those negative images.
It's really too bad there aren't better role models and people to identify with on TV and in the movies, so my question is...and it's loaded...which came first--the media or the culture? Who's influencing who? Or is it a bit of both?
23. Bill
- 02/28/2004 3:57 pm CST
Jared,
I see your point, of course. I admit this is a bit of a hobby-horse with me. I have absolutely no problem with someone who says "I don't like Raymond" (btw, your reasons for not liking it make sense to me). Personally I rarely watch the show, and that usually in reruns. I watch so little TV, though, that if I have a "show" it's probably Raymond (I also think the show resonates more with people in Raymond/Debra's generation - like me :-)
Not to beat a dead horse and become all Robert Miltonish, but the point I was trying to make was that I don't think Raymond is any more detrimental to our society than many other shows (in fact, I'd would posit that it's less destructive). I just think we should be consistent in our criticism, if we're criticising from a moral standpoint. What I mean is this - if Raymond hurts our society, so does Homer. The Simpsons may be smarter, less formulaic, etc, but it still portrays a father in a very bad light. And I'd submit that the Simpsons has a larger teen viewership than does Raymond.
We'll always find reasons to defend what we like. For instance, I can decry cinema violence till the sun goes down - that is, until someone brings up the violence in The Lord Of The Rings. Naturally, there's nothing really objectionable about that.
Um, because I really, really like those movies. :-)
Like I said, this is a bit of a hobby horse with me.
24. Bill
- 02/28/2004 4:01 pm CST
Also - about the cleanliness of ELR. You're right, it's not completely clean. I was calling it clean relative to many other shows, which it is.
25. Jared
- 02/28/2004 4:02 pm CST
Bill, I understand. I get what you're saying. I agree, too, which is why I never weighed in on if that show -- or any other -- was bad for society. If I said anything like that, I take it back. That's not what I meant.
I was only trying to communicate why my family doesn't love "Raymond." It usually resonates negatively with us (although I will reiterate that I do find it funny from time to time).
It has less to do with Ray being dumb than with the characterization of Debra. Give me sweet and patient and loving-though-longsuffering Marge any day.
26. Bill
- 02/28/2004 4:42 pm CST
Jared - well said. I agree, give me Marge over Debra.
Debra is so high maintenance!
27. Shrode
- 02/28/2004 11:45 pm CST
I want to chime in, so I will...
I'm not commenting on the whole tv thing here, just the sitcoms. Oh where, oh where have the good sitcoms gone? (Mostly to TVLand)
Home Improvement was the last sitcom I watched. They simply aren't funny anymore. They can't make another good sitcom, IMO. The genre is over. It's dead. I hate them.
And all of the ones that come out are moronic and unfunny and yes, many are immoral.
And let's kill the laughtrack already. Please, kill the laughtrack. If it's funny, I'll laugh. If it's not I won't. I know Jared has spoken against these elsewhere quite eloquently. But the reason I mention it here is because it is what shuts the lid on the coffin of sitcoms.
Laughtracks totally ruin a viewing experience for me, and I won't watch any new show that has them. (I admit to still enjoying some of the old sitcoms on TVLand that have laughtracks.) But when I turn on a show, and they start telling me when to laugh, I turn it off. You know, if they really wanted to create that atmosphere of group laughter, why not just tape it with a studio audience? And let their laughter go on the tape unedited?
I long for a funny, genuinely funny comedy on television. There are none. If there were, I would watch it.
I hate, I despise laughtracks.
And sitcoms are of the devil.
28. Quaid
- 03/01/2004 3:26 am CST
In fact, I'm trying hard to think of a sitcom in the last 30 years where the man, to one degree or another, wasn't portrayed as week.
Dude - what about all of the 80s sitcoms that I grew up on - Growing Pains and Family Ties. (and does Full House count? - I wasn't a big fan, but there was no annoying mom - mainly because there was no mom)
Dads were definitely strong in those shows.
29. Jared
- 03/01/2004 3:43 am CST
Quaid, good points. And those shows were at the same time "Cosby" was on too.
"Growing Pains" especially had a competent, smart, and caring father. (Who, like Heathcliff Huxtable, worked from home. Hmmm. Wonder if those shows had a subconscious effect on me . . .)
30. Bill
- 03/01/2004 3:46 am CST
Yeah, I forgot about those. Although I remembered them right after I made my "30 years" comment.
I revise my "30 years" to "10 years" :-)
Hooah!
I've always been a bit miffed with this same perception of men on TV. Not to sound misogynistic, but the Lifetime network is especially bad about it. I will readily admit that a portion of it is simply perspective/perception on the part of the viewer, but when seemingly 99% of the movies deal with a male antagonist that is the essence of evil, and a female protagonist. Granted, a lot of these movies also have either female villains or men to bolster the female hero, but they appear to be pretty rare. My wife gets a lot of good-natured ribbing from me because of this.
Having said this, let me point out that it isn't just TV movies, sitcoms, etc. that are guilty of this. Product advertisements are guilty of the same thing, giving people like Jared short shrift. Think about it:
"Kix. Kid tested, ______ approved."
"Choosy ____ choose JIF."
It's not "PARENT approved" it's "MOTHER approved," and it's "Choosy MOMS," not "Choosy PARENTS." Maybe this is just a silly little thing for me to get worked up about, but I dislike the tacit implication that my wife is the only one who knows what's good for my boys.
Sorry to wander off-topic. :-)