"The most important aspect of Christianity is not the work we do, but the relationship we maintain and the surrounding influence and qualities produced by that relationship. That is all God asks us to give our attention to, and it is the one thing that is continually under attack.
"
- Oswald Chambers, My Utmost For His Highest
Tuesday, July 12, 2005
Okay, so Bono has a knack for using profanity. He is soft on ecumenicalism. He is probably a universalist or at least an inclusivist of some sort. He is "liberal" when it comes to politics and most social issues (including, I think, abortion and gay rights). Put all that on hold just for a second. Because when asked pointed "religious" questions by a mainstream journalist, Bono preaches the whole gospel -- sin, grace, Jesus, the full deal. He even manages to contextualize it for his audience (in this case, the interviewer and the interviewer's readers), but the gospel of Jesus Christ is right there shining clearly.
Michka Assayas: As I told you, I think I am beginning to understand religion because I have started acting and thinking like a father. What do you make of that?
Bono: Yes, I think that's normal. It's a mind-blowing concept that the God who created the Universe might be looking for company, a real relationship with people, but the thing that keeps me on my knees is the difference between Grace and Karma.
Assayas: I haven't heard you talk about that.
Bono: I really believe we've moved out of the realm of Karma into one of Grace.
Assayas: Well, that doesn't make it clearer for me.
Bono: You see, at the center of all religions is the idea of Karma. You know, what you put out comes back to you: an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, or in physics?in physical laws?every action is met by an equal or an opposite one. It?s clear to me that Karma is at the very heart of the Universe. I?m absolutely sure of it. And yet, along comes this idea called Grace to upend all that ?as you reap, so will you sow? stuff. Grace defies reason and logic. Love interrupts, if you like, the consequences of your actions, which in my case is very good news indeed, because I?ve done a lot of stupid stuff.
Assayas: I?d be interested to hear that.
Bono: That?s between me and God. But I?d be in big trouble if Karma was going to finally be my judge. I?d be in deep sh*t. It doesn?t excuse my mistakes, but I?m holding out for Grace. I?m holding out that Jesus took my sins onto the Cross, because I know who I am, and I hope I don?t have to depend on my own religiosity.
Assayas: The son of God who takes away the sins of the world. I wish I could believe in that.
Bono: But I love the idea of the Sacrificial Lamb. I love the idea that God says: "Look, you cretins, there are certain results to the way we are, to selfishness, and there?s mortality as part of your very sinful nature, and let?s face it, you?re not living a very good life, are you? There are consequences to actions." The point of the death of Christ is that Christ took on the sins of the world, so that what we put out did not come back to us, and that our sinful nature does not reap the obvious death. That?s the point. It should keep us humbled? It?s not our own good works that get us through the gates of Heaven.
Assayas: That?s a great idea, no denying it. Such great hope is wonderful, even though it?s close to lunacy, in my view. Christ has his rank among the world?s great thinkers. But Son of God, isn?t that farfetched?
Bono: No, it?s not farfetched to me. Look, the secular response to the Christ story always goes like this: he was a great prophet, obviously a very interesting guy, had a lot to say along the lines of other great prophets, be they Elijah, Muhammad, Buddha, or Confucius. But actually Christ doesn?t allow you that. He doesn?t let you off that hook. Christ says, "No. I?m not saying I?m a teacher, don?t call me teacher. I?m not saying I?m a prophet. I?m saying: I?m the Messiah. I?m saying: I am God incarnate." And people say: No, no, please, just be a prophet. A prophet we can take. You?re a bit eccentric. We?ve had John the Baptist eating locusts and wild honey, we can handle that. But don?t mention the ?M? word! Because, you know, we?re gonna have to crucify you. And he goes: "No, no, I know you?re expecting me to come back with an army and set you free from these creeps, but actually I am the Messiah." At this point, everyone starts staring at their shoes, and says: Oh, my God, he's gonna keep saying this. So what you?re left with is either Christ was who He said He was ? the Messiah ? or a complete nutcase. I mean, we?re talking nutcase on the level of Charles Manson. This man was like some of the people we?ve been talking about earlier. This man was strapping himself to a bomb, and had "King of the Jews? on his head, and they were putting him up on the Cross, going: OK, martyrdom, here we go. Bring on the pain! I can take it. I?m not joking here. The idea that the entire course of civilization for over half of the globe could have its fate changed and turned upside-down by a nutcase, for me that?s farfetched . . .
So, okay, yeah, Bono's a flaming liberal. And, sure, he's not as good a Christian as you.
But given a forum, the dude preaches the gospel. He even managed to work in Lewis's trilemma!
Which is a heckuva lot more than
some alleged ministers are willing to do given similar spotlights.
(HT: World)
Now it's time for you to remind me in the comments that Bono cusses and supports gay rights and stuff. ;-)
Trackbacks:
Trackback URL: http://thinklings.org/bloo.trackback.php/2270.
Comments on "Bono Preaches the Gospel":
4. Andrew
- 07/12/2005 1:27 pm CDT
I guess my repsonse to people who question Bono's faith is that the only people questioning it are other Christians. Lost people (at least the ones I have spoken to about it) see him as real because he is out living his faith. They are puzzled when they see Christians all up in a tizzy about it.
Slightly Unrelated: One of my Christian mentors met the Edge and actually confronted him about his drinking and swearing. Edge cocked his head back and laughed and said, "You Americans and your Christianity..." He made some great points about sin and liberty and though he did not quite agree with everything Edge said, he said that he walked out of that place without a doubt in his mind that Edge was a born again Christian...
(This happened in 1996)
5. Bill
- 07/12/2005 4:47 pm CDT
I'm not going to judge Bono, even though I am not a U2 fan.
Seriously, this is awesome. I'm thankful that Bono was bold and shared this very clear presentation of the gospel.
Also seriously (I'm not being snarky): he's a better Christian than I am.
6. DLE
- 07/12/2005 5:01 pm CDT
And yet he's also repeatedly mouthed the line that Judaism, Islam, and Christianity all preach the same truth. That's so far outside the doctrinal line that it make one wonder.
7. salguod
- 07/12/2005 5:17 pm CDT
Go Bono. Maybe My. Olsteen should have used a lifeline ...
KING: Because we've had ministers on who said, your record don't count. You either believe in Christ or you don't. If you believe in Christ, you are, you are going to heaven. And if you don't no matter what you've done in your life, you ain't.
OLSTEEN: Um, Larry, I need to use a lifeline.
KING: Uh, OK, what do you want to do.
OLSTEEN: Can I phone a friend?
KING: Who'd you like to call?
OLSTEEN: I'd like to call Bono.
KING: Bono? Like U2's Bono? Rock singer?
OLSTEEN: Yes.
KING: Let me understand, we're talking religion, Christianity. This is what you do, it's your job right? And you want to call a rock star?
OLSTEEN: He's just better at standing up for the gospel than I am.
KINGG: OK, let's get Bono on the line.
8. Daniel
- 07/12/2005 6:01 pm CDT
I'm actually reading that book of interviews with Bono by Michka Assayas right now and was planning to blog portions of it soon (you beat me to it).
BTW, in the book, Bono talks of Adam Clayton becoming a believer and goes into great detail about his faith.
But, yeah, he is a liberal and he has some views about other religions that don't match up with our views so he isn't really one of us. (end snarkiness) ;-)
9. De
- 07/12/2005 6:12 pm CDT
Before I'm flamed, please read my comment #5.
So far the only criticism of Bono is from DLE. The only people bringing up Bono's cussing, or his liberalism, etc, are his defenders. DLE said "And yet he's also repeatedly mouthed the line that Judaism, Islam, and Christianity all preach the same truth"
I don't know if this is true or not. But if it is, wouldn't you agree that's a problem? Not a judgement on Bono's salvation, but a problem (I wasn't aware of it).
Let me rephrase: If Joel Osteen insinuated that Judaism, Islam and Christianity all preach the same truth (and I'm going off DLE's comment here, for the sake of argument saying it's a true statement) wouldn't we be lambasting him?
Balanced scales . . .
10. De
- 07/12/2005 6:16 pm CDT
Just to remind everyone - read what I wrote in #5 before responding. I still mean what I wrote in comment 5, and do not have confirmation that what DLE said is actually true (not that I'm accusing DLE of making it up. Just wondering about the source, etc)
11. De
- 07/12/2005 6:23 pm CDT
On second thought, don't respond. I just re-read the post and Jared points out some of these things already (Bono being a possible universalist, for instance) and asks that we put that aside for a moment.
Didn't mean to stir up anything. Ignore . . .
14. Jamie
- 07/13/2005 1:25 am CDT
Oh God!
And I really mean it...
Thats well and truly amazing...
Had a very long discussion with a muslim friend yesturday and what are the important differences between islam and christianity. (Its really hard work! My muslim friends don't wank, they don't drink, they pray regularly... Its so easy for them to say to you, Jamie you're just a pathetic sinner compared to me there is nothing you could say to me... And Thank God they haven't been judgemental like that!)
But What Bono said sums it up perfectly. The big difference IS karma and grace... thats so simple and perfect. And something I tried explaining badly yesturday was this idea that "Doing things yourself to get into heaven" makes more human sense. Grace HAS to be from God:P It wasn't too convincing
But Bono talks about that perfectly as well! Wow!
Sorry if I'm ranting :P But I'm fairly excited by that... hope you don't mind me stealing it :P
JAmie
15. De
- 07/13/2005 1:46 am CDT
Alan,
I agree (I think) regarding the expectations. We expect more of an exact theological stance from Osteen than we do from Bono. We expect more from Rick Warren than we do from Bono. Ditto John Eldredge. Ditto Tim Lahaye. Ditto Clark Pinnock. Ditto me :-)
I'm trying to figure out, on my own, whether we should or not. It goes back to my question in #9. It's an honest question, not a Bono-slamming question.
I do struggle a bit with the "Bono paradox" . . . I have the (nearly) unique perspective of not being a fan. I don't have emotional connections to Bono via decades of being touched by his music, for instance.
I just re-read what he said to the interviewer. I think it's a fantastic presentation of the gospel. And that's the ironic thing - it's a better gospel presentation than most of the people I know (including myself) would probably give in an interview, having to think on their feet.
17. Jared
- 07/13/2005 3:27 am CDT
Bill, yeah that would absolutely be a problem. I don't know exactly what Bono has said in that regard (religions being "equal"), so I can't really comment on it. All I've heard is people saying he's said it. I'd like to see a source.
But if it's true, yeah of course it's a problem.
But do notice that in this interview he distinguishes the uniqueness of Jesus as God and the Son of God from the "ordinary" prophets of other religions. So it's not like he's saying "it's all the same thing; just pick the right path for you." He is actually arguing for the rightness and specialness of Christianity.
I'm not sure how that would jibe with his (alleged) religious relativism, but seems to qualify it in a good way.
18. Jared
- 07/13/2005 3:28 am CDT
B-rad, just keep De in your prayers. That's all you can do.
Maybe he's not really fallen, but merely backslidden and will come back again.
19. Matt
- 07/13/2005 3:30 am CDT
There are a lot of people that think that Islam, Judaism, and Christianity say the same thing - mainly because they just don't know enough about any of these to know better. All three believe Jesus was put on the cross. Muslims believe he was replaced by Judas, a Jewish person would tell you he died and that was it. I've met plenty of Muslims who have tried to sell me on the idea that Christianity and Islam are basically the same. So does Bono believe that they are the same? I guess one would have to ask him.
But look carefully at what he said:
"had a lot to say along the lines of other great prophets, be they Elijah, Muhammad, Buddha, or Confucius. But actually Christ doesn’t allow you that. He doesn’t let you off that hook. Christ says, "No. I’m not saying I’m a teacher, don’t call me teacher. I’m not saying I’m a prophet. I’m saying: I’m the Messiah."
So, even if he says that they are all the same, the above comment would negate that belief. Maybe he doesn't realize it. But in his comments, he makes the case that Jesus is different from every major world religion.
It would all depend on what you mean by "basically", too. All three come from the same line of thought (as a general rule - I know that the roots of Islam are more complex than that). In that way, they are basically the same. They just come to different conclusions about Jesus. In that respect, they are basically different.
20. Thor
- 07/13/2005 3:34 am CDT
Bill: not going to judge Bono, even though I am not a U2 fan
I don't know. I think we can examine and criticize what they profess. Judging the heart or motives? Well, that's difficult, and ultimately, reserved for God. Bono has always been a tough case, though. I always shudder when this guy opens his mouth because you're not sure what is going to come out of it. But he is open to examination and criticism because of the public platform he holds. I believe every word he proclaims should be examined carefully. We all rejoiced with the news of Jane Fonda's conversion and the professing community, though a bit skeptical, embraced her immediately. Awesome. Well, now we have discovered there are some serious doubts whether she holds to historical Christian orthodoxy (full deity of Christ, the Trinity, Biblical inerrancy and sufficiency, etc.). I won't go so far as to say Bono and Fonda aren’t saved (that's not for me to decide), but I can examine a man's life. But do we really know what the guy truly believes? I choose to believe so until I have evidence to the contrary. Therein is the enigma that is Bono.
21. De
- 07/13/2005 4:07 am CDT
Jared, Matt, Thor - well said
I've tread carefully here, mainly because, yeah, this is an awesome presentation of the Gospel. I would need to see sources and context on anything Bono's said that contradicted this (and how long ago he's said it - seems to me that U2 has had somewhat of a spiritual revival as they've aged)
"He is actually arguing for the rightness and specialness of Christianity. I'm not sure how that would jibe with his (alleged) religious relativism, but seems to qualify it in a good way."
Absolutely!
22. Jared
- 07/13/2005 4:09 am CDT
Based on the public professions Bono has made about his salvation, I tend to believe him. In this interview itself he does an excellent job of explaining the uniqueness of the Christian faith and demonstrates a good grasp of sin (talking about the sinful nature!), grace, and faith vs. works.
I don't know about the "all religions" thing. I've never heard him say anything like that, but I suppose it wouldn't surprise me if he had. I do know people are talking about some bandana he wore at a concert that had a cross, a crescent, a Davidic star, etc on it. I'm not sure, though, that a bandana is good theological data. ;-)
Looking that man's life, sure, he says and does a lot of questionable things. He curses. Apparently (and I've never seen a source for this either, but I don't really doubt it), the church he goes to in the U.S. supports gay rights and gay marriage.
So he sins. I do too. Maybe his sins are worse than mine, I don't know. I tend to doubt it, but his are obviously more upfront and provocative.
But I honestly don't think any of those things could make the man unsaved. I see the good he does as a result of the truth he (apparently) actually believes, and I see a guy walking his talk a lot more consistently than I walk mine. He knows that his celebrity is currency and he's desperately trying to save lives in another continent. We can argue with the way he's doing it, but I for one can't argue with the fact that he is actually there, caring and trying.
If anything, Bono really does seem to get "the least of these." And James said something about what pure, undefiled religion was . . .
23. jen
- 07/13/2005 4:12 am CDT
I'll say only this - I look forward to walking the roads of heaven with Bono and having a nice chat with my brother in Christ.
No Christian is perfect - we all have the potential to preach an incomplete or incorrect Gospel, be it in word or deed. That he uses his fame to help the "least of these" is commendable - we should all be more like Bono in that respect. That he took the opportunity to lay out the Gospel in clear and relevant terms to this interviewer is equally commendable.
I look at it in the light of the speck/plank thing.
24. De
- 07/13/2005 4:17 am CDT
Jared / Jen
Well said again. And I don't think anyone's suggesting that Bono's not saved. I certainly wasn't.
25. Robert
- 07/13/2005 4:56 am CDT
A (hypothetically) grouchier person than me :-) might suggest that someone who is socially and politically liberal (regarding "gay" rights, and other *moral* evils), and "probably a universalist" clearly doesn't understand the "whole gospel". If we restrict the gospel to "justification by grace through faith alone" then Bono clearly does understand and proclaim it. Of course, the gospel is more than justification, and it seems that Bono is lacking in those areas.
I think a fairer judgment would be that Bono is absolutely a Christian, but is wrong about many things, just as you are and just as I am. Maybe the things he's wrong about are more important in some sense than the things we are wrong about, but maybe not. And maybe he is right about some very important things, too. He seems to be right about the most important thing.
26. Manders
- 07/13/2005 6:58 am CDT
Thank God that none of us are saved because of our theological rightness, right? :)
28. Alan
- 07/13/2005 8:17 am CDT
She means we're saved by trusting in Jesus, not by passing a theology exam (or by trusting in Jesus PLUS passing a theology exam).
There are limits, of course. You aren't saved by trusting in Jesus if by "Jesus" you mean a raccoon that lives in the woods by your grandmother's house.
29. Robert
- 07/13/2005 9:09 am CDT
we're saved by trusting in Jesus, not by passing a theology exam
Right. Which is not to denigrate theology (or any other sort of good work), because it is important, but to magnify God's grace. He saves us despite our bad theology and other bad works. Doesn't mean we don't hold each other and ourselves accountable to the Bible, but that's not what saves us.
30. Ashley
- 07/13/2005 9:34 am CDT
WOOHOO!!! GO BONO!!!
I love it when people who are popular in the mainstream come out and say stuff like this. And Bono totally stood up to the secular view of Christianity.
BTW, I thought the line about God saying, "Look, you cretins" was hilarious.
32. Manders
- 07/13/2005 11:55 am CDT
Alan: Exactly. I mean, yeah, to be a Christian obviously there are some very basic points of theology you need to believe and accept about God (God's existence, the divinity/humanity and sufficiency of Christ, your sinfulness, you can't save yourself, and, I would argue, the Trinity), but it's not like God's going to be like, "Oh, no, you can't come in, you were wrong on such and such a point." And obviously Bono's got the basic stuff down.
33. Lexie
- 07/13/2005 7:38 pm CDT
Bono was a lot bolder than Osteen about Jesus.
He also laid bare the weakness of the "Jesus was a good teacher and that's all" line. Can't remember the source, but it reminds me of the saying, "Jesus was either a liar, a lunatic, or Lord."
I'm a fan, since the early 80's. Many times Bono's actions and words make me cringe. Many times their songs have inspired me.
Thanks for the quotes.
34. Scott McClare
- 07/14/2005 6:16 am CDT
Sort of sad, isn't it, when the world's biggest rock star has a better Christian testimony than the pastor of America's biggest church. Thanks for posting this.
35. Megan
- 07/14/2005 8:26 am CDT
The Jesus, Jew, Mohammad, It's True line is coming out in the current round of concerts U2 is putting on. We heard it and both initially questioned it, but have since thought through it a bit more (Craig's review of the concert is here: http://navigators.gospelcom.net/twentysomeone/latest/index.php?p=139 and my review of the concert is here: http://www.halfpinthouse.com/?p=327
Basically, I think he's saying we're all descendents of the same line (Abraham) and we need to work harder at developing peace with each other. I don't think he's calling it an "all roads lead to home" deal.
For anyone who cares, Craig also just reviewed the book you are referencing here. It can be found here: http://home.navigators.org/us/staff/craig_megan_dunham/index.cfm?Entity=25&Department=323&Dept_Order=4&This_TopicOrder=4&This_SubtopicOrder=1
36. The Crusty Curmudgeon
- 07/15/2005 4:42 am CDT
The Thinklings demonstrate that the world's biggest rock star, of all people, has a better Christian testimony than the pastor of America's biggest church.
37. O'Neil
- 07/22/2005 12:13 pm CDT
I believe many are taking this way out of context that Joel was saying. Many churches these days are not be critical of anyone. Joel, didn't want to plainly say that someone is going to hell if they don't believe in Christ. It was pretty hot being on that seat and stating what you really believe. I think he didn't want to seem like he was hurting anyone out there. I truly believe that the "Christians" have to make a stand on what they believe or no one will ever be pursuaded to believe. It's either black or white, there are no gray areas. Make a stand somebody!
38. Jamie
- 07/22/2005 2:07 pm CDT
I think people should leave poor Joel alone :P
Body of Christ thing I think applies here...
Some people are there to show the world that Jesus is the only way. Some people are there to show that God's love is for all...
Joel osteen is all about God improving your life... That isn't everything but its something that appeals to people... its something that can lead you on to getting properly saved. If God can heal a past hurt or something and free you from that... then you are much more likely to take his true gift of Salvation from sin???
leave him be :D!
(Having said that I'm biased, I've seen the effects of Joel on my hard evangelical dad. My mum is currently working for Lakewood (anyone who pays attention to me must be very confused. I live in England, am only 17 have parents who live in New York but a mum working at lakewood! :P hehe))
39. Jared
- 07/22/2005 4:47 pm CDT
Body of Christ thing I think applies here
I think I know what you mean by that, and if so, I must respectfully disagree. Joel Osteen is an alleged minister, a pastor of a Christian church. The NT is fairly clear on what the role of a minister is, and its not negotiable according to "giftedness."
"I am not ashamed of the Gospel . . ."
Some people are there to show the world that Jesus is the only way. Some people are there to show that God's love is for all...
But Jamie, why either/or? Why not both?
And if you have to go either/or, do you honestly think the ecclesiological instruction in the New Testament contains a verse where it says something akin to "Pastors and preachers may opt out of teaching the gospel and instead just preach that God loves everyone"?
It's not there. You can't have one without the other.
I like Joel. He seems like a great guy. I'm sure I'd love to hang out with him and be friends. And he's an awesome speaker. He's a great motivator and communicator.
But as a minister of the gospel of Jesus Christ, he's pathetic.
Michael Spencer still gets Osteen defense emails from his posts and one this week he shared has a guy saying we shouldn't even be talking about the cross anymore. I'm not making that up. He's defending Osteen's approach by saying talking about the cross is too negative.
I know that's further than most Osteen-backers care to go, but that's still scary.
I'm grateful for whatever seeds Joel's messages manage to plant. It's truly proof that God's word will not return void, and even a poorly handled bit of truth can make a difference.
But I insist -- someone please show me, in Scripture, where the duty of a minister is to only talk about God's love and personal self-improvement and to be appealing to people.
It's not there. And the one thing that is there -- over and over -- as a requirement for church teaching is the one thing Joel Osteen can't bring himself to do.
I don't care if he's got 15,000 people there. The Unification Church has hundreds of thousands and lots of people are finding self-improvement by being a Moonie, too.
The Gospel matters.
40. Neil
- 07/23/2005 4:40 pm CDT
37. Jamie, You sound a little sad and confused about what's going on. How do you feel about Christ being able to make a change in a persons life? Do you believe that it's Him alone that brings the change? Or motovational speaker that gets people excited for the moment. Jesus said that My words are life. It's his WORD that brings a changed life if they abide in it. Be strong in the Lord and the power of his mite. My friend. (Gospel of John) If you abide in me and my words abide in you, you can ask what you want and it'll be done. Paraphrase (15:7)
Be Strong!
That's actually quite inspiring. May we all be that clear about our faith whenever we get the chance.
Okay, has anyone heard about this story that Adam Clayton got saved? Wonderful if true, but the Christian grapevine seems to get a bit excited about things like this and... y'know... makes stuff up.