Very true, De.

Do you guys counsel couples at your church?

Do you guys counsel couples at your church?

No. I almost clarified that in the post, because it probably sounds like we do.

That's what's so sad about this. This is just coming from friends of my wife. Who knows how widespread it is.

I think that bit about "Husbands should love their wives as their own bodies" is very telling. If a man has so much criticism for his wife, imagine what his mind is telling him about himself. If he is so convinced that his wife's figure is somehow a reflection of his manhood, there is something seriously screwy in his head.

The other side of the coin is that women are raised to hate their bodies, and to constantly compare themselves to each other and find the ways they are lacking. So it's also possible that in some cases, the husbands aren't saying anything nearly as extreme as what the wife, in her insecurity, attributes to him. Of course, I also believe that there are jerks out there who would say such cruel and careless things.

AMEN. Proud of you, De, and your Jill.

Call me a curmudgeon, but it doesn't help that people in the church constantly say stuff publicly like, "... my beautiful wife, Kaye, and I are ..." Why is it always so important to attach the "beautiful" adjective? Doesn't affixing this modifier convey the idea that beauty is singularly important? What about the women out there who aren't so beautiful? Should their husbands refer to them as "my plain, semi-attractive wife, ..."?

I don't buy the line that these guys are just referring to inner beauty, either. Men in the church find it necessary all the time to comment on their wives' good looks. It sends a crummy message: It's critical to a good, loving marriage that one's wife be a babe. And it's critical that she be showcased as such whenever the opportunity arises.

I know the women here are unsympathetic, but men fight a battle with this all the time. We're wired to respond strongly to physical attractiveness, whether we like it or not. It would be nice if this just went away by age 40 or 50, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Biology still hammers away at us. (A man still ought to keep his trap shut when commenting to his wife about her appearance, though.)

RachaelAnne: you wrote: Of course, I also believe that there are jerks out there who would say such cruel and careless things.

I can guarantee you that in these instances the hurtful words are coming directly from the husband to the wife, bluntly. In other words, she's not imagining it.

One woman, who's husband abandoned her, said recently "And, of course, I'll never get married again. Who would want to marry me? Look at me." - What's sad is that she's an attractive woman. But she believed the cr@p her husband told her before he bailed on her.

SteveJ - I hear you. It bothers me that some pastors come very close to preaching that it's a wife's duty to "stay hot" for her husband. I'd like to hear the biblical support for that.

"Biology still hammers away at us. (A man still ought to keep his trap shut when commenting to his wife about her appearance, though.)"

Tap - yes, you're correct. However, biology can't be an excuse for sin. When a man leaves the woman he promised he would never leave, he also leaves a wake of destruction behind him that carries on for generations.

That's why I called this kind of attitude "infantile". It's selfish and it goes against what the Bible teaches men to do regarding their wives.

Tap I've got to take some issue with what you said. If a man is overly focused on looks then it is because that is what he has been feeding his flesh. God designed us in such a beautiful way in that when a man and woman climax together and look upon one another they become STRONGLY bonded. We call it sexual glue. In this case it really doesn't matter what the wife looks like....the chemicals in his brain will still respond to just a glance of her (yeah it is THAT powerful). Unfortunately many men have spent hours upon hours locked in their bathrooms or in front of a computer and have become glued with hundreds if not thousands of images before they even met their spouse. Their wife doesn't stand a chance in this regard. She will never measure up to that standard because lust cannot ever be satisfied. I'd be willing to bet my right arm that the women who heard those comments are married to men with sexual addictions.

My husband calls me his beautiful wife. Beauty is from within. I have grey hairs and some character lines and I need to drop a few pounds and so does he. That’s key holding on to the fact that we know each other’s bodies bump and bruises. I don’t think I’d want to start over with a new man. I’ll keep the one that put that ring on my finger almost twenty years ago. I’m glad we aren’t the same as when we first go married being in my forties has its perks. (Some of you ladies might know what I mean ;-}

Bill, thanks for this post. I'm grateful to have married later - my husband never saw me when I was thinner. He fell in love with my plump self and I'll be forever grateful! He tells me often that I'm beautiful and it's usually when I'm at my grungiest.

I grieve for women whose husbands are jerks. They don't know what they're doing with their selfish and unloving attitudes.

Mandi - good insight.

There just arent enough good men out there anymore. We have become an increasingly infantile society, and hopefully my generation can reverse this 'baby boomer' curse.

We have a friends, and as a couple they could be the ones the OP is modeled after. She is overweight, he never fails to remind her that he is disappointed in her, then wonders why she doesn't do anything about it. It's a vicious circle, and sadly, not uncommon. Everything that has been posted so far in response is true, and I'd agree that there is a sexual addiction behind it... The question is: as friends, what can we do?? We've talked to them numerous times, but neither is really willing to change. The sad part: they have 3 children who are watching this play out. They are together for the kids, and it grieves my husband and I to see the wasted potential there. And from a "Christian" couple.

I wish our pastor would preach a sermon like this, De.

We could all learn from it.

Cara - he needs to read a book called Sex, Men, and God by Doug Weiss (plus a good whack on the head from the Bible might help too). Honestly she should be caring for herself but not so that she can please him. She would only be trying to fix the problem with a solution that won't work. Let's be honest....most women after having a few babies will not be able to ever look like women in magazines. They can work out and eat right but stretch marks and skin have a way of staying around. He needs to change. I think a godly man needs to sit him down and have a heart to heart. He needs some accountability and he really needs to understand what sexual addiction does to a soul. She needs to be praying without ceasing for her husband. There is just so much I could say about this. We have just started this ministry outreach at our pregnancy center and I am overwhelmed with what is going on in people's homes.

The truth is that men and women talk past each other on issues like this.

My wife and I a while back went to a training class to become facilitators and then, later, actually took the Dynamic Marriage class itself from Family Dynamics. It's an excellent program designed around the book His Needs, Her Needs. The book is a little hokey in spots and is unfortunately stereotypical, but the principles inside are wonderful. Take the class, it does a pretty good job of smoothing out the book's rough spots.

The overall point of the book is to show that each of us have basic emotional needs. If those needs are met, marriages are strong. Although the book lists 'men's' and 'women's' needs, each person is different and most don't follow the stereotypical pattern. Understanding, and accepting, our spouse's needs puts us in a place to meet them and make them fullfilled.

One of those is the needs (usually of the man) to have an attractive spouse. Certainly, there are somethings we cannot change. She's not going to be 20 again and the law of gravity is irrevokable. The important thing is to recognize that this is very important to him and therefore very important to the health of our marriage. What can the wife do to meet that need? Better wardrobe, makeup, loosing some weight are all things that show him that if it's important to him, it's important to her.

For a man who has this need, if the wife simply calls him shallow and ignores it, the message he hears is "I don't care about you."

Certainly, the husband needs to be sensitive to reality, and the one line summaries you've given show men who were not. However, how long has he talked about this and gotten the cold shoulder and no response?

It's a two way street. He cannot demand that she become a supermodel, nor can she blow him off as an insensitive clod.

I'd highly recommend the Dynamic Marriage class to anyone who's married. It's very good.

Salguod,

My wife and I did His Needs/Her Needs several years ago. Overall, it was a positive experience.

However, there were a few troubling things in it. First of all, in the book that came with it, there was almost (note, I said almost) this undercurrent, after reading story after story of people having affairs, that men were kind of "pushed" into the affair by their wives.

And, of course, my guess is many men who have affairs do feel pushed into them.

But - for God's sake - there is no excuse for an affair!

Also, while I agree that we should do our best to look good for our spouse - my wife and I, for instance, have both been dieting and have shed a decent amount of weight recently - I don't think we can classify that as a "need". It's a want, a desire, but it's not some kind of right.

I think HN/HN overemphasized that, and women have been abused by boorish husbands holding "His Needs" over her head.

It's overall a good study. But, man, take it with a grain of salt.

I'm really, really, really tired of hearing that "this is just how God made men".

Screw that.

Men, be faithful to your wives, emotionally, physically, spiritually.

And I say that with fear and trembling. I'm not trying to hold myself up as someone who has it all together. I know, very well, to "be careful if you think you stand, lest you fall".

But I'm sick of our culture. I'm sick of men leaving their families. I'm sick of the absolute destruction that causes in lives. I'm sick of middle aged men wanting to be teenagers again, and I'm completely, uber-sick of men in the church who don't act any different than the outside world.

We need to see some men who are heroes. Who are Godly, and who love their wives always, faithfully, because they promised they would, regardless of the circumstances.

I'm really, really tired of excuses.

We need to get back to no-excuses manhood.

And I know that that counts for me, just as well as anyone else.

Also

Salguod, you wrote:

"Certainly, the husband needs to be sensitive to reality, and the one line summaries you've given show men who were not. However, how long has he talked about this and gotten the cold shoulder and no response?"

I'd like to answer this, but I would end up saying things I regret.

There's no freaking excuse for leaving your wife, other than the Biblically allowed reasons.

None whatsoever.

Men who leave their wives, have affairs, etc have no excuse. And I'm certainly not going to provide them with one.

When the men in this culture (all of us) start living more like Jesus, and get the bar raised a bit higher than the pathetically low standard for maleness today, then, then maybe we can start talking about our needs.

We've got to earn it first.

Mandi - he's not the type of guy to read books. Even the Bible. Sad.

I just spoke with my friend today. They'd been away on family vacation the last couple of weeks. They've been on my heart alot lately, and the last couple of days in particular. I've been praying for them. She told me today things are getting worse - I pray I'm wrong, but I feel like things are going to come to a crux soon. They haven't been attending church regularly, and I feel that contributes to this issue. He's found fault with alot of things, but never himself. They went to a different church in town here on Sunday, and she told me that he refused to take communion. I take that as a good sign, at least he's being honest with himself and knows he's not in a good spot.

My husband is his best friend, and my husband is a good husband (along the lines of what De seems to be, grounded in the Word and with good character). I've told him the last couple days that it's time to get serious in counselling his friend, no more "listening ear, try to be a subtle good influence" type of stuff but a rubber-meets-the-road "You have to get it together" type of talk. I've had that with my friend already (I used the HN/HN theory "if it matters to him, it has to matter to you").

I'm just so upset about this. My parents divorced 10 years ago, and as an adult it threw me for a complete loop. And 10 years later, both parents are more miserable than they were in the marriage (my mom had an affair). I don't want to see their children have to go through a split, and I don't want to see them go chasing after greener grass, which of course never exists.

I'm just really upset right now. I'm praying.

De, I had this whole, brilliant I might add, post typed up and accidentally hit the key stroke to close the tab. Argh.

Let me try to resurrect it.

I agree with you on the assessment of the book. Every failure leads to an affair. Oh, and it isn't just the men, the women have them too. It's one of 2 big the failings of the book, the other is overly characterizing the 10 needs as male or female, not giving much impression that people are different. I had 3 'male' needs and 2 'female'. My wife was the opposite. As I said, the FD class does a pretty good job working around at least the latter of those shortcomings.

My point was not to make excuses for men leaving their wives (or wives their husbands). There is absolutely no excuse, however, my question is are we, and more importantly are the spouses, making it easier for them to stay or go? They've got to make their decisions to stay or go and will have to live with them, but if an attractive spouse is important, how much energy is she putting into it? If she's just blowing it off as insensitive and unimportant, shame on her for not taking care of his needs.

One of the things I remember from the training I went to for leading the clases was what lead to the book His Needs, Her Needs. The author is a Christian therapist working with marriages. He was frustrated that his success rate, though on par with the average therpist, was quite low. He was especially alarmed that religious conviction and commitment didn't seem to matter, those with it were divorcing at an equal rate as those without.

He began to try alternative methods and the book was the summary of what he learned. The bottom line was that we all have emotional needs and if we work at learning our spouse's needs, then we can go about meeting them. When our needs are met, there's little reason to look elsewhere.

It sounds like the Bible to me, looking to other's needs above out own.

You wrote:

When the men in this culture (all of us) start living more like Jesus, and get the bar raised a bit higher than the pathetically low standard for maleness today, then, then maybe we can start talking about our needs.

We've got to earn it first.

I disagree. If the men and women start living more like Jesus, we will be focused on each other's needs and we will be meeting them. We don't demand our own needs met, we go looking for our spouses' needs and meet them. Living like Jesus does not mean gritting it out because that's the way God wants it. It means looking beyond ourselves to our spouses and changing ourselves to meet their needs. It means being sensitive to those needs, no matter how shallow they may seem.

There's no way we can earn the right to have our needs met. What a hopeless existence that would be. "I'll take care of our needs, honey, once you deserve it." I know that I've been far less a man than my wife deserves, yet I thank God that she chooses to be like Jesus and watch out for my needs. Though I wouldn't be excused from it, living my commitment to her would feel unbearable if she refused.

Cara - I know I'm going to sound like a Family Dynamics sales rep, but why not check their web site and see if there is going to be a Dynamic Marriage class in your area soon? Maybe they'd be open to taking it, especially if you took it together. As I've said, (and it sounds like you're familiar with the book), the book has it's short comings, but I feel that the fundamental principals are strong and biblically based. The class definitely has a biblical focus to it.

One of the great things about the classes is that they are sponsored by churches and many of the attendees are members of that church, while some are not. A bond is developed through the class that is quite powerful. While it's not an evangelistic focused event, when it's over, folks are naturally drawn to stay with the group and join the church to do so. It may be the spark that draws them into a healthy church relationship.

Thanks Salguod. There's much to agree with in what you just said, especially the one part of HN/HN that I've always agreed with (and find biblical) - that of concentrating on the other person's needs.

That being said, I would never counsel a couple that has "my wife's too fat" as a key area of conflict in their marriage to go to His Needs/Her Needs. Never. The wife is just asking for more abuse at the hands of jerkface if they go to that.

Trust me on that one.

Finally, I don't believe that men and women share the same responsibility (obviously).

I think as Men maybe we should just study a book called "Her needs" and forget about our needs for awhile. When her needs get met, she feels better about herself anyway. Who knows - sometimes a better-looking spouse results.

And I lump myself in with all this criticism.

We need to lead, we need to get better, we need to earn the right to be called men.

And sometimes that means "gritting it out". Perseverance is a characteristic of true manhood.

Me again.

"It means being sensitive to those needs, no matter how shallow they may seem."

No matter how shallow?

What if a woman is 5'4" and weighs 140 pounds after having 3 kids, and her husband has a "need" that she lose 30 pounds.

What if he "needs" her breasts to be bigger?

No matter how shallow?

What if she ends up anorexic in a desperate, legalistic race to stay "good enough for him"

God doesn't look at the outward appearance. He looks at the heart.

As men, if we are to be Christlike, shouldn't we do the same?

The ironic thing is, I believe some women do "let go" because it's always been, from day one of the marriage, about his needs. And his needs are impossible to meet. Add in loneliness, resentment, the fact that he's probably had affairs, etc, and you wonder why (and possibly even blame) the wife for finding solace in food? Why should she try to become what he wants her to be, after being treated like that?

Do wedding vows mean nothing?

I'm ranting, not arguing with you. You are 100% correct: if we each began concentrating on the needs of our spouse, these problems truly do go away. But I think the men, not the women, need to lead in that.

And that's the problem I see - anytime HN/HN comes up in conversation, it's almost always the same thing - husband wants wife to look better.

De I think I'm just as fired up about this as you. I remember saying once, "where in the Bible does it say Thou shall love thy wife only if she has thin thighs?" What about the husband who marries a woman and she is in a fire and becomes scarred? Or the guy who marries a woman who gets breast cancer and she has to have a double masectomy? Are these women any less valuable because of their appearance?? NO NO NO! But this attitude that is permeating here would have these women believe they are damaged goods. We have friends and the wife is just an absolutely gorgeous woman. I just found out recently that her husband wants her to get implants. Are you kidding me?! He had an affair and now she doesn't measure up. I'm telling you.....EVERY SINGLE TIME men start talking like that they are involved in sexual sin. The first thing they need to do is to stop looking, stop self-gratification, stop fantasizing, etc. Then they will be able to see the beauty of their wife....because there is NO ugly woman. To say that would mean we say to God, "Hey man you really messed up on that one!" I tell the girls I work with that God personally formed every feature of their bodies and He made it EXACTLY the way He wanted. Who are we to argue with that? I'm going now. My blood pressure is rising and I need to breathe.

I appreciate "His Needs/Her Needs" from an applicatory angle, if, as De noted, the reader/practitioner drops out the stuff on his or her own needs and focuses on their spouse's. It "works" only when both are participating.

And that is why when it doesn't work, it can be devastating. B/c it sets up a "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" dynamic that can result in one spouse sucking up all the needs energy while the other is drained, emptied, having given without receiving. When your goal is mutual fulfilling of needs, there is always a standard just shy of having been met.

So, yeah -- it's fine in theory when done selflessly.

But there's only little room for the gospel in it. Why not meet needs out of reverence for God? That is what Paul says to do. Not meet needs to make your spouse better suited to meet yours, not meet needs to "affair proof" your marriage. That is the likely practical result; but it doesn't always happen that way, and those are ideals still lesser than submission to God.

Bottom line:
Husbands love your wives as Christ loved the Church.
Wives submit to your husbands.
And nobody blame the other for your failure to do so.

My 2 cents.

I will also say that I see men taking a beating in this thread. Jerky men who deserve it. But also "men" in general.

I won't dispute De's experiences; I know a few men who have been just as sinful and hateful and heinous toward their wives, men who have had affairs and left their wives.

But I also know women are no strangers to marital sins. I can't tell you the last time I heard a Christian man complaining about his wife; I hear Christian women complaining about their husbands (and men in general) all the freaking time. I used to sit in a coffee shop on Thursday nights writing and have to listen to a "mommy's night out" group bitch and moan about their husbands and kids.

Mark Driscoll says that in his community marital infidelity on the part of wives is actually more frequent than that of husbands. I believe it, because I do believe that for every infantile, jerky, making-excuses husband there are just as many shallow, self-centered, joyless wives.

Can we at least admit we are all sinners? That a man's addiction to pornography is no worse than a woman's addiction to romance novels or credit card debt or whatever? That women can just as easily posion a marriage with her actions as a man can his?

Not to take anything away from your post, De. I agree with every letter.
I just see the comments on thse things tend to take off into "Men suck" territory, as if the only problems in marriage are caused by husbands and that men's "issues" are solely responsible for all the family ills in the Christian community.

I do agree that men, having been assigned the mantle of family leadership, bear a greater responsibility.

I think we're on the same page, Jared. I admit that I tend to get very "ranty" about this subject - of course both genders are sinful. I tend to think that the sins of men are more destructive, though.

And, as usual, you've nailed it here, in a lot fewer words than it would have taken me:

"I do agree that men, having been assigned the mantle of family leadership, bear a greater responsibility."

Jared, you make an excellent point. A wise older woman (Titus 2) once mentioned she never, ever spoke badly about her husband to anyone---even when he wasn't her favorite person at the moment.

That really stuck with me. I have been a part of "Mom's Night Out" many times and a lot of the ladies take it as their chance to gripe about their husbands. Some of it is petty, some big. I think this is harmful to marriages. Yes, friends can be good sounding boards. But do they truly need to know all my husband's faults? I know things about friends' husbands I wish I didn't.

Of course if something truly terrible is occuring in a marriage it is important to lean on friends, seek their counsel, and ask for prayer. But women don't seem to get that annoying habits and last night's fight don't fall into that category.

Men and women have unique but equally damaging ways of undermining the strength of their marriages. The man who complains about his wife's appearance, the woman who complains to anyone who'll listen about her husband's personal failings and faults---neither is demonstrating honor, respect, or love.

Not enough time left in my lunch hour to respond to everything. I will say this, I would never, ever hand a couple a copy of HN/HN and the workbook and tell them this will help their marriage. I agree with all that has been said about it, it's playing with fire and is only useful for couples who are both committed to learning from it and growing. Many times, the folks who need to hear the teachings in there aren't in a spot to maturely use them. Alone, without a support group of some kind, it can do more damage than good.

What I will recommend, and what I was talking about above, is the Family Dynamics Dynamic Marriage course that is based on the book. It does carry some of the idiosyncrasies of the book (namely the sometimes hokey exercises in the workbook), but it softens the hard edges and adds to the curriculum accountability, support and a safe environment to share and work through the issues that arise. It's a powerful healing environment that you need to experience to understand.

My big thing on this is similar to Jared's. It's not the 'evil men' it's the evil people, all of us. We all need help seeing things through the other's eyes and respecting it. When I hear of things like De posted, I'm angry at the man's behavior, but I'm also miffed that perhaps no one took him seriously at all as he talked about it. Shut up and accept your wife, you insensitive clod. At least in some cases, the man is trying, probably clumsily, to express a genuine emotional need. Instead of help, he gets clubbed to death.

A wise older woman (Titus 2) once mentioned she never, ever spoke badly about her husband to anyone---even when he wasn't her favorite person at the moment.

My husband is this way, and has been from the beginning of our marriage (10 years this Nov). I am shamed to say that I was not, and still am not perfect. But I strive for this. It was both a blessing, and hot coals on my head, when I learned that he will only build me up to others. And I didn't learn he was that way from him, but from those he'd spoken to regarding me. I am so thankful for this character trait in him - he honors me, even when I really don't deserve honor.

I had a very long discussion with our friends about a month or so ago, one night around the campfire as we camped together. My husband (unfortunately) had already gone to bed, so he wasn't part of it. It was begun with a simple question: "Do you think your marriage is living up to its potential?". They both were stonily silent at first, then they both agreed, no, it wasn't. It ended up being a good conversation, it got them talking to each other and I got to use the things I've learned from all the marriage books I've read, "Love and Respect" being one of them. I reiterated many times throughout the conversation that Love, true, unselfish love, doesn't wait for the other person to 'hold up their end of the bargain'. That Love and the Marriage Vows are a covenant, NOT a contract. And as a picture of how Christ loves us, his bride, no matter where we are at. I think they both understood that - the world certainly speaks a different message and some of that type of thinking easily slips in if you let it.
At this point all we can do is pray, intercede on their behalf, and be an example to them. My marriage isn't perfect (I make lots of mistakes - remember the "man-boob" comment?Ugh. Your advice helped) but my husband and I both discussed this at length (after I showed these posts to him) and we realize how fortunate we are to have each other - both of us seeking to serve God and love each other sacrificially.

Thanks for discussing this topic, it's been helpful.

remember the "man-boob" comment?Ugh. Your advice helped

I do remember that! I wondered if you took the advice given. I'm encouraged that you did and that it helped. :D

Thanks Salguod,

And, yes, it's just sin on all parts.

"At least in some cases, the man is trying, probably clumsily, to express a genuine emotional need. Instead of help, he gets clubbed to death."

And, I'm sure that's true in some cases.

But in a lot of other cases, instead of help, he gets a divorce, a younger, bustier, thinner, prettier wife, freedom from responsibilities, a convertible, a second childhood, more money (while his kids and ex-wife suffer), etc.

I have to reiterate: the men I was referring to in this post have absolutely no excuse, based on all I know of their situation.

I hate to be a jerk about this, but I'm tired of being nice about it.

In our culture, generally speaking, men do suck. We're the whiniest, wimpiest, ungodliest, more self-absorbed, most juvenile generation of men ever. The bar's just too darn low. We've let it get there. We need to turn this around.

Women are bad too, but sometimes that's just the way women get when they are denied the Biblical leadership they want and deserve from their man.

I'm generalizing, of course. There are plenty of contrary examples. I've had friends who do everything right but still don't get the respect they deserve from their wife, etc.

But, generally speaking, I think this one's on us.

I'll modify my position when I start seeing evidence to the contrary. If you can show me some, I'm all ears/eyes.

As bodies age, they degenerate. I have seen my grandparents die and my great aunt develop Alzheimers. My wife, a nurse, worked at an adult day care center and recounted many examples of what happens as we age.

It is entirely likely that the "babe" we married, will be restricted to a bed due to a broken hip and will require somebody to change their diaper. They will require somebody to feed them the equivalent of baby food and wipe the drool off their face as they lay there and struggle for their next breath--for months...years... All the while, they will keep asking you your name because they can no longer remember who you are.

Can we stop loving them then? They surely aren't meeting our needs to have a "beautiful" spouse. Surely.

As De said, this is a lie from the pit of Hell. Everything that is good will become bad, and everything bad will become good. There is surely SOMEBODY who desires us to emphasize the temporal over the eternal. To follow the path to destruction. To leave behind our vows (just words, right?) and the wife of our youth. To train our children in the ways of the unfaithful. I wonder who? He's pleased to meet you. Hope you've guessed his name.

And on the idea that a beautiful wife is insurance against divorce, I don't think that worked for David. I believe any addict would say that one is never enough. All addictions end up in a downward spiral to destruction in pursuit of the dragon.

What is the cause of this idea/trend? Pride. I know what's best for me.

Let each one of us find a way to encourage another married couple today! Because of the rewards to the destruction of marriage, Satan's attacks are ongoing and dynamic. He will expend a lot of his energy in this area. Our defense needs to be just as ongoing and dynamic!

If a woman is emotionally starved by a husband who puts her down re. her physical appearance, ignores her emotional needs, and generally doesn't seem to value her as a person or a friend - is it a great surprise when she is tempted to have an affair with the warm, sensitive male acquaintance who thinks she has a great sense of humor, loves her taste in books and movies, looks her in the eyes and listens when she talks, and seems to find her fascinating?

I'm not saying her husband's jerkiness gives her license for an affair or excuses her from her marriage vows. Of course it doesn't. But we "understand" the powerful temptation, and the part her husband played in placing her in harm's way by his insensitive behavior. We see how such a situation cntinued over time could result in a wife sinning by having an affair. At least I do.

If that's the case then isn't it equally true that if a woman is insensitive to her husband's emotional needs, doesn't act like she respects him, and doesn't make reasonable efforts to get where he's coming from with regard to the physical side of their relationship, then she is placing him in harm's way? He's still responsible for what he does, but she's making it a lot harder for him.

I think most people in this thread would agree that there's a difference between a man in the above situation and the situation to which De seems to be most exercised about - where a woman is doing all that could reasonably be expected of her and her husband has totally unrealistic expectations about the physical side of the relationship and her appearance, expectations which are driven by porn or even just negative societal stereotypes. But anger over the latter situation, shouldn't result in ignoring the existence of the former, painting all men with the same brush and all women as innocent victims.

As Salguod points out, women and men both sin against each other in marriage. I know Christian guys whose lives are miserable because of materialistic wives who either overspend or put constant pressure on them to make enough $$ to fund their expected standard of living, live in the right kind of house, guys with complaining/nagging wives ("like dripping water" says Proverbs) who don't treat them with respect, etc. While some of those women are reasonably, healthily proportioned given their age, number of children, etc. a few of them clearly don't make much effort to take care of themselves physically and would be classified as "overweight" not by unreasonable societal standards, but by any medical doctor. Or others, not overweight, may be gorgeous by society's standards but just totally shut their husbands off physically. Yeah, the husband in that situation still has to suck it up, focus on meeting his wife's needs and honoring his marriage vows. But she's putting him in danger.

IMO often both spouses are at fault (even if the one most at fault is whichever of them has an affair first). We talk about "breaking the marriage vows" as if abstaining from adultery was the only vow one makes. But if we vow to love, respect, honor etc. one another . . . haven't all of us broken *those* vows at times? And if someone is consistently and unrepentantly breaking *those* marriage vows, I find it understandable (though not justifiable) that the other partner's resolve to remain physically faithful might begin to crumble over time. Pervasive porn and a sex-saturated culture often make things really hard on women, and even Christian men can be part of the problem. Other issues can make things really hard on men, and even Christian women can be part of the problem. Welcome to the human race. God help us all, literally.

I've thought, on occasion, that I'd like to write a book titled The Bible Wasn't Written to Your Spouse (It Was Written to You). Whether it's marriage books like those discussed here, or biblical passages like Ephesians 5:21-33, we have a dispiriting tendency to read them not as texts addressed to ourselves, to convict us of sin and challenge us to change, but as texts addressed to our spouses (or whoever), to give us clubs to beat them with. It's not an easy thing to get folks to read these things as addressed to them, as being about their own stuff and what they need to change--I know, I've worked on it--it's not easy to open their eyes to the fact that nowhere in Scripture do we read, "Wives, you can expect this from your husbands," or, "Husbands, you have a right to get this from your wives"; but honestly, until you can get people over that hump, nothing else you teach them is likely to do much good, because until that one truth is understood, there is no other truth they cannot distort, abuse, and misuse to their own ends.

Well said, AM.

Well stated, AM. But an observer looking in from the outside can often see where the failure of either spouse (or both) to do what is Biblically prescribed, is making the lot of the other (or both) harder. De is able to see this in the lives of the women he mentioned in his initial post, women with selfish and insensitive husbands. I can see it in the lives of some good Christian men I know with selfish wives.

Also, do you really mean that if two people stand before "God and these witnesses" and vow to love, honor, cherish, obey and remain faithful to one another as long as they both shall live, that neither of them has a scriptural right to expect that the other will love, honor, etc. them? I don't think that's what you are saying. But taken to an extreme we can go there, if all we do is tell people they have no right whatsoever to notice what they aren't receiving from their spouse. De's female friends can't help but notice being called fat and wishing their husbands gave them more respect, for example. And I'd join with De in saying they have a right to expect not to be demeaned and called fat by their husbands.

Hosea was perhaps the model spouse, but most people, male and female, hope to find a spouse who doesn't test their faithfulness as much - or make it as difficult and painful - as Gomer.

Lots of good stuff in here.

Marriage is a battle. Not a battle for our own needs or satisfaction, but a battle to be focused on our spouse's needs, even as we may feel that our own aren't being met. And then there's the battle to talk about that with respect and humility. And then to listen as our spouse talks about theirs.

It's easier to tune out and whine about our lot in marriage. God shines when we engage the battle instead.

Lots of great posts, and such a positive conversation! I really like this place!

My husband has a saying (he picked up somewhere else), "You can be right, or, you can be happy".

What we battle is Pride. Pride, as CS Lewis said somewhere, at the root of every sin. The battle to put someone else before ourselves is really the battle to humble ourselves, and our pride.


I really think the key to a healthy Christian marriage is putting God first. As AM said, seeing the Bible as written to convict YOU of YOUR sins, instead of written to the world, to convict them of THEIR sins.

We did a marriage seminar about 4 years ago, it was about the "covenant" of marriage. The speaker went into what "covenant" really means, and the concept of covenant within the context of the Middle Eastern society. We understand it as a "contract" - that's Western thinking. A covenant was unbreakable, is unbreakable. He took quite a hard stance on marriage/divorce/remarriage. He said until the Church begins to teach again that divorce and remarriage (aside from adultery or death) is unacceptable in the eyes of God, the rate within the church will be the same as, or worse, than the divorce rates outside the church. It took away all excuses. And, as a kicker to it all, the other guest speakers were a couple, a pastor and his wife, who had walked through the experience of adultery, and forgiveness. The wife had had an affair (busy pastor husband, not meeting her needs...) and she had confessed the affair to her husband. They then found out she was pregnant, by the other man. Their own children were in their teens. They told their story together, and nearly every person in the room, men and women, were visibly moved. It was raw, it was real, and it was redemptive. No glossing over with "... and then I forgave her, and we live happily ever after..." But it proved the point - there is no excuse, and LOVE covers a multitude of sins. It left my husband and I changed in our attitudes about our marriage, and each other.

I guess the question to ask some of these people is, "Do you love him/her?" and then read again the taken-for-granted passage in 1 Corinthians 13 which defines love. Then ask again, "Do you think you're loving this way?".

Karl, no, that wasn't what I was saying; but I don't think you're on the right track. For one thing, I'd challenge the idea of a "scriptural right." In the Scriptures, "right" is an adjective. There are times when it's a substantive adjective (i.e., "do what is right"), but I don't recall it popping up as a noun in the way that we use it. The concept of "rights" is a political concept, necessary in delineating and delimiting the powers and responsibilities of government; it's also in that sense a theological concept, as we apply theology to politics; but it isn't a biblical concept. The Bible isn't really on about asserting our rights, but about telling us what God has called us to do and how he has called us to live. Indeed, so far from affirming us in making others do what we want, it has the unsettling tendency to say things like, "If someone takes your coat, offer them your shirt to go with it."

Now, does this mean that if our spouse sins against us, we should just shut up and take it? No--just as we shouldn't just shut up and take it from any other Christian brother or sister. One of the things Scripture calls us to do is to lovingly correct a brother or sister who is sinning. Selfishness, insensitivity, failure to love and honor the person you married--much less the sort of Hell-spawned abuse De talks about in the OP--aren't just "marital issues" of the same sort as "my wife looks twenty years older than she did twenty years ago"; they're sins, and need to be addressed as such. The kind of thing De's talking about, or you're talking about, isn't a matter of marital rights, or self-perception of needs, or anything else--it's a sin issue, and must be dealt with as a sin issue. Which includes, no question, not the right but the responsibility for their spouses, as fellow believers, to call them on this behavior.

Along with that--and mark this well--the church, and especially its leaders, has the exact same responsibility; and the failure of the church to exercise discipline in this area is a crying, screaming, bloody shame.

To reiterate the key point here, there is a major difference between marital-preference stuff (of, say, the "I wish my wife would get in shape" variety, or "I wish my husband were more romantic") and flat-out sin. I don't mean to diminish the significance of the former, but we have to keep the two straight. In the latter case, we come up against our Christian calling to encourage, correct, rebuke, and otherwise build up one another (something which the church ought to be empowering and equipping us to do, and too often isn't). As for the former, that's where it comes to my point: no, the Bible doesn't tell us what we have "a scriptural right to expect" from our spouse, it tells us what our responsibilities are to them. Again, it isn't, "Husbands, expect this from your wives" and "Wives, demand this from your husbands," which is how we too often read it--it's "Husbands, do this," and "Wives, do that."

Which, from a counseling point of view, makes perfect sense as a practical matter, not only a theological one. You can't change the person you're married to; you can only change yourself. If you want them to change, nagging, badgering, pushing, and other such efforts are inefficient and ineffective (at least for the good); the only real way to bring about meaningful change in the life of your spouse--or anyone around you, really--is to change the life of the only person you can even begin to control: you.

Oh, and no, Hosea wasn't the model spouse; he was a prophet. The difference is profound.

Excellent points, AM. I'm going to save those, and use them in our next discussion with our friends. :)

I think one of the most awesome things I've read lately was this AM gem:

"For one thing, I'd challenge the idea of a "scriptural right." In the Scriptures, "right" is an adjective."

Man, that's good . . .

My heart is broken for these marriages and how the devil comes to destroy. One way is to put something between us in any relationship be it either church life, family life, relatives, in-laws - out-laws, and the list goes on. Your spouse is not the enemy!

I have not read every comment; my husband has kept me up on the conversation going on in this post. But we both agree it takes two to make it and two to break it. And marriage at any level is hard work; we speak from 43 years of marriage.

The comments and/or actions made by either spouse are only a symptom of a much deeper issue. When we are hurt by something first bring it to God in prayer for the hurt and pain and on behave of the other person’s deeper needs. No one but God can meet all our needs and cause us to think rightly about the issue. Our minds need to be renewed – our thinking – by a two edge sword that cuts to the heart of the matter. We will then be able to start to respond in a Godly way and not be hurt.

So when you hear of these difficulties encourage this person to pray and you pray with them. Venting is one thing bashing is another – do not allow. Someone needs to come alone side both parties not in condemnation of the action or words spoken but in unconditional love. Allow the Holy Spirit to do its work showing the wrongs and leading to the throne of grace.

When we pray about an issue we may be the one who is called to get involved and if not us who will go to tell the good news we are a new man and we must not act or conform to the old man. We have been released by the blood to a new life in Christ Jesus.

Why do Godly people do ungodly things? I think the answer is obvious.

And some people don't want to put the work in . . . and too often, the church doesn't call them on it. Too often, churches don't call anybody on much of anything, actually.

Thanks, Cara--I hope it helps. Sounds like your friends could really use a spiritual anvil or two. And thanks, De--most kind. :)