My main beef with the "Above All" lyric isn't who Jesus was thinking of but rather the poor writing. How does a rose trampled on the ground "take a fall"? The mixed metaphor irritates me not as a theologian but as a writer.

Regarding the Above All lyrics, I don't see how Jesus thinking of saving me and thinking of God's glory is contradictory. It's kind of "wooden" to think "okay Christ thought first about this, then this..". He simply obeyed His Father, and that involves saving each one of us and also glorifying His Father. I'm not a calvinist (at least not schooled in that way of theology but I can see where you guys are coming from..) but I wonder what "glorifying" means in concrete terms - probabaly praise because all should praise the One from whom all good things flow, it might also mean following the plan of the Creator, obeying.

Karen,
The more I think about it, I think you are right. I get what the writer was trying to say...but you have a good point. That song could make people think of God as being mad at their performance.

Of course, theologian extra-ordinaire John Piper says that "God is most satisfied in us when we are most satisfied in him..." does that mean there are times when he is "less satisfied" in us? Hmmmmm.

Jared, you are right. And speaking of bad writing, "in the garden" is horrible.

"And the joy we share as we tarry there, none other has ever known"

What, so no one else but you knows the joy of being with Jesus. Where's this magic garden where you get to hang out with Jesus? and does he only come in the morning?

I think some of songs (which were originally poems) should have stayed as poems. Because on a personal level, it works. But they never should have been set to music for congregational singing.

Ken Leonard, right on! And they weren't kings either!

And what about the christmas carol that says, "no crying he makes". Really, a newborn baby that doesn't cry?

I agree it's probably not a hymn that should be sung every week. But there's a time and place for some sober reflection about the price Jesus paid to redeem us and this hymn is perfect for that.

I guess I set the bar too high when I first heard about songs with "bad theology" a few years ago.

Maybe I was expecting songs that were obviously heretical with lines like:

"Jesus we're baptized for the same reason you were - because you sinned."

OR

"We can't wait to become gods ourselves so we can rule our own planets"

OR

"God, you're so great because you are just one path of many up the same mountain"

OR

"The force is with us"

But alas, I haven't seen any that easy. :-)

"Trading My Sorrows" comes to mind immediately :

I'm trading my sorrow
I'm trading my shame
I'm laying it down for the joy of the Lord

I'm trading my sickness
I'm trading my pain
I'm laying it down for the joy of the Lord

The joy of the Lord is present in sickness and sorrow. We don't have one or the other and we certainly don't have some kind of claim on a pain free life because we are Christians.

of course what bothers me most about the last one is the whole refrain of "yes, Lord, yes, Lord, yes, yes, Lord..." repeat ad infinum

can we please get rid of all the repetition - thats what bothers me most... (and the mediocre music, and the mediocre lyrics... can we not get some new artists schooled on Rich Mullins to write us some good stuff?)

Amen to getting rid of ad naseum repetition in our worship.....its like when you have an old car and you turn it off, pull the key out, get out of the car and walk away, and its STILL gurgling and trying to run........shoot it!

I've got a few examples (well, at least one) - I hesitate a bit. It's easy to start piling on and getting all negative.

One comment to make to those who dislike repetition: what about the Psalms? Also, I've heard the chorus of Mullins' "Awesome God" sung about 500 times :-)

I echo the beef with the refrain added to a hymn. I really wish modern worship artists would leave the hymns alone. I'm OK with modernizing the musical arrangement, but must you add your own bridge, refrain, etc? "My chains are goooonnnne! I've been set freeeeeee!" - that would make a good new song, but leave "Amazing Grace" alone, please :-)

YMMV. That's just me.

OK - now my big beef (and here I started this comment all cautious about beefing. Well, I guess I got revved up). There's a song called Treasure that I think is overall a good song, and when I first heard it I really liked it. But then I began thinking: There's a lyric in the song that says this:

I would run for a thousand miles
If I knew ever step would be getting me closer
I'd swim to the ocean floor
For the Lord is my treasure my Lord is my treasure

When we sing that, I feel like such a hypocrite. This is a good example of what I term "Brag Worship". The point of the song is not so much that the Lord is a treasure as much as it is about "Look how much of a treasure the Lord is to ME!".

Run for a thousand miles? Really?

First off, that's basically impossible (this side of eternity, at least). Secondly . . . are we (or at least most of us) lying when we sing that?

Thoughts? Please point out where I'm wrong, because I want to like that song.

In defense of Trading My Sorrows - much of the song is a direct quote from 2 Corinthians 4, and I don't think, in that context, that the writer is saying "I don't suffer anymore, because I've got the joy of the Lord".

Grammatically, I had always heard it as "Its my joy to honor you in all I do. I honor you." Splitting hairs, I suppose, but . .

Thanks Chris - I'm going to start thinking of it that way :-) Much better!

the Psalms are a different kind of repetitive...

(and personally I tend to ignore that Rich Mullins wrote Awesome God - its not too bad as written, but no one can leave it alone or always do the verses, so... I think all great song writers have one song that gets big that never should have because its actually one of their worst - Awesome God is Rich's... Friends is Michael W. Smith (speaking of which - I refuse to acknowledge the worship albums - with a few exceptions he picked such mediocre stuff written by other people - one one album I could even tell which songs he wrote by whether they were decent or not (I loved all his songs - I hated all the worship-y ones he did of other peoples) so if you're wondering why I'm adverse to most current Worship music - try being a long suffering Smitty fan praying that he'll finally come to his senses and turn away from worship music if he isn't going to write it himself)

Run for a thousand miles? Really?

First off, that's basically impossible (this side of eternity, at least).

Not that it disproves your point (which I agree with), but just today, six marines completed a 3,500 mile run in honor of Veteran's Day. Granted, it took 63 days, but it happened. :-)

Uh, this is kinda irrelevant to the actual topic, but I believe the line in "Treasure" is "I could run for a thousand years". Which, Andrew, I'm afraid I must say, that even US Marines can't do.

But in reference to "Above All", I think a better critique of the line "he thought of me above all" would be to say that no, he thought about His Bride. The issue I take with the song, and the reason why I think it's unbiblical, is that it reinforces the classic Western assumption that everything, including God, revolves around me. Which is just not true. Yes, Jesus did die to save individuals. But far beyond that, He died to set apart for Himself a people.

I would submit that the songs pastors should be on the lookout for are not so much songs with "bad theology", per se, but more broadly, songs which are unhelpful. The purpose of the songs we sing, just like everything else we do in our services, is the edification of the Body. So in picking songs to sing, the pastor/music leader should consider first: "What does this song communicate about the nature of God? about the nature of man? about sin? about grace? about the Gospel? about how we should live our lives?" And also: "How will people take this song? Are there any parts of this song that could be misunderstood or misleading?".

Bob Kauflin from Sovereign Grace once came up with a way of checking his song selection to determine its helpfulness to the body. He proposed asking the question: If someone was in this church for [some number of years, I don't remember how many], and all they heard was the music, how well would they understand the Gospel? How biblical would their doctrine of God, of Man, of Sin, of Grace, of Redemption, of Resurrection, of Holiness, etc. be?

That's a pretty scary test, but I think a very telling one. And it could be a very helpful one for many a congregation.

I kind of agree with the point about "in all I do, I honor you," but Chris' idea has been pointed out to me.

By Chris? (Is that you, Chris?)

Anyway ... I'm uncomfortable with that one, even with the explanation, but that's my hang-up more than anything else. I get that.

I don't mind repetition, depending on what we're repeating. I mean, I'm a fan of "I Could Sing of Your Love Forever," and the title is pretty much the song.

I don't know if a 2 year old's approval of correct theology in song would count but my granddaughter does not like the first verse of Jesus loves me. She like this verse though:
Jesus loves me! He who died
Heaven’s gate to open wide;
He will wash away my sin,
Let His little child come in.

AT our church we aren't overbearing about this at all, but we have put a lot of thought into it and we try to avoid anything obvious, as well as a couple of other things. We try to avoid using songs that speak of letting God do something or allowing God to do something. For instance, we do a lot of Chris Tomlin songs, but we don't do "Let God Arise," as you will not find anywhere in the Bible, that I'm aware of, of human beings "letting" or "allowing" God do anything. Even things like "quenching the Spirit" in my view are not about our control over God, but more about what God chooses to respond to. -- Another thing is the idea of "enthronement" usually arrived at from Psalms like 11, 24, 29, 47, 75, 82, 93, 96-99, etc. There is some scholarly work that suggests that ancient Israel, like the surrounding pagan communities, utilized annual enthronement rituals for their own deity. But there is no real evidence for this, and it would contradict what seems to be Israel's presuppositional belief that God is already King by his very nature. And the idea of someone or something in the creation "crowning" Jesus is not, to my understanding, biblical either. The Bible teaches that Christ has already been crowned by the Father as Lord (Hebrews chapter 2). Peter teaches that we should "set apart" or make holy Christ as Lord within our hearts (1 Peter 3:15), but not that we make him Lord. Some old school songs like "Crown him with many Crowns," "The Name of Jesus" and "All Hail the Power of Jesus Name," have this kind of thing in them. Some modern song writers have also redone Crown Him with Many Crowns, adding tags that say things like "We crown him King of kings/Lord of lords" etc. Giving the benefit of the doubt: The idea seems to be to express devotion and commitment, but the language is not consistent with the Bible. -- fun post by the way.

Right now I have a mental block for the title of the song and the context in which this lyric appears, but I do remember that because of this lyric I was never able to sing along with this song. Here is the lyric that bugs me and that I think is truly bad theology, "and save my pride".

I have to wonder, at least a little bit, if bad theology in worship music is just a little less prevalent than it was even 20 years ago. I recall us having this conversation on this site a few years ago, and someone (I forget who it was at this point) brought up "God Good, Devil Bad" by DeGarmo and Key as an example of both poor songwriting and flawed theology.

Either most artists today know not to write such drivel or most of us just know where to find the good music. :)

Tom,

I do understand the intent of such songs and I'm not trying to be overbearing about these things. Here is my thinking in this case: I would suggest that the "let" is poor translation, and it lends itself to some ideas about our relationship with God that are off base. It is a jussive, which is often translated with the "let" when it is a command. Otherwise it is usually used to express a desire, which is better translated "may," or simply "arise" with the idea of it being a request, not a command. We could ask, "If it's 'let', then who is the 'let' directed to?" Maybe it is rhetorical. But if it is the worshipers of Israel, sharing in the worship by singing this song, then we could ask, "How do you follow the command to 'let' God arise?" In what way are we letting God arise? Metaphorically, emphasizing his majesty and power? I could accept that. But I see the word "arise" as directed to God, asking him for protection and praising him for his might and power. --- once again, if someone disagrees with me, I have no serious problem with that. Honestly, just trying to give an example of how I try to show care in what lyrics we use at our church. I'm also interested in what kind of care others show with a desire to "teach one another" faithfully using songs, as opposed to not liking a song for reasons of taste.

Dave, I initially had the same issue with leading our congregation with "Let God Arise." Then I read the psalm and realized I was probably reading the lyric in the wrong way. The song is in the mode of proclamation, not requesting, so I don't see the word 'let' as a request in light of the whole song.

The rest of that particular song is top-notch. "His enemies will run for sure/The church will stand, she will endure/Our God is a God who saves!"

A side note: We did "Amazing Grace (My Chains Are Gone)" just a handful of times and while, the "my chains are gone" lyric is a good one, it's like adding a new pre-chorus to the "Star-Spangled Banner" (i.e. confusing to the congregation and not really necessary).

Melinda that is the one. Bill you may be right except isn't it a fairly recent song? Most lyrics writers in recent years, I wouldn't think use old meanings for words...could be wrong, though.

A side note: We did "Amazing Grace (My Chains Are Gone)" just a handful of times and while, the "my chains are gone" lyric is a good one, it's like adding a new pre-chorus to the "Star-Spangled Banner" (i.e. confusing to the congregation and not really necessary).

Well said.

Tony, decade-old? That song is almost TWO decades old now. :-/ (that means I'm old).

Sorry I missed this post--I love this discussion.
Some lines that drive me mad are, from, (Come, Now is the Time to Worship")

Someday every tongue will confess,
Someday every knee will bow
still the greatest treasure belongs to those who gladly do it now....

The biblical reference to "every" tongue confessing and knee bowing seems like a warning, a prophecy, that all will bow, in adoration, or command, and the latter will be judged for not bowing here. To use the word "Still" in the last sentence sounds like,
"Yes, someday cowering in fear, covered with your God-forsaken sin will be a nice treasure, but it would be nicer to do it now in church." Sheesh.

chiming in off topic here because I checked back and saw "Big House" quoted... Personally I'd love it if more stations played "Big House" but I'm not going to claim it as either good music or fantastic lyrics either one. (Though it is better than the even more retro "P.D.A." - aka the most retro-est-awesome old CCM video in existance... Most people don't even realize Audio Adrenaline was around that early in the 90s to have anything looking remotely like that...)

Ally (who loves me some 90s music - then again I don't like most CCM past 2000 - which is coincidentally the year I graduated from highschool - I've become an old fogey rather early)

I have to say that I tune a lot of them out because it's my job to type them in to the data base, add pretty pictures behind, check for mistakes, change the songs because the worship minister rewrote the song, and then make sure that they are on the screen so you folks to sing. Plus I work the sound at times also. By the time I spend the time at home, set it all up on Sunday morning before anyone else arrives and get through sound check I’m numb to what the words are. I just pray that all goes well for you folks that sit in the pew.

Soooo what are the best worship songs.

I'm forgiven because you were forsaken
I'm accepted, You were condemned
I'm alive and well
Your spirit is within me
Because you died and rose again

I'm forgiven because you were forsaken
I'm accepted, you were condemned
I'm alive and well
Your spirit is within me
Because you died and rose again

Amazing love, how can it be?
That you, my king. would die for me
Amazing love, I know it's true
Its my joy to honor you
Amazing love how can it be?
That my king would die for me
Amazing love I know it's true
Its my joy to honor you
In all I do
I honor you

I'm forgiven because you were forsaken
I'm accepted, you were condemned
I'm alive and well
Your spirit is within me
Because you died and rose again

Amazing love how can it be
That you, my king would die for me
Amazing love, I know its true
It's my joy to honor you
Amazing love how can it be?
That you, my king, would die for me
Amazing love, I know its true
Its my joy to honor you
In all I do I honor you

You are my king
You are my king
Jesus, You are my king
Jesus, You are my king

Amazing love, how can it be?
That you, my king, would die for me
Amazing love, I know it's true
Its my joy to honor you
Amazing love, how can it be?
That you, my king would die for me
Amazing love I know it's true
Its my joy to honor you
In all I do I honor you
In all I do honor you


Specifically, the line In all I do I honor you. That is a huge lie.
This song is the worst offender that I can think of.

So singing this song in worship is lying to God to his face. I do things that dishonor God all the time. Every sin I do dishonors God and I sin everyday.