"The abnegation of reason is not the evidence of faith, but the confession of despair."
- J.B. Lightfoot
Friday, January 1, 2010
As unpromised, then re-promised, here is the lone surviving video from Moot, which is Blo trying to wrap his tiny Sasquatch brain around original sin and coming this close to the heresy of Pelagianism. ;-)
Blo on Total Depravity from Jared Wilson on Vimeo.
Trackbacks:
Trackback URL: http://thinklings.org/bloo.trackback.php/5738.
Comments on "Blo is Totally Depraved":
6. Roy
- 01/02/2010 11:28 am CST
You guys cornered Blo in the dark (probably wee hours with sleep loss) and asked him to define and defend his fundamental beliefs? That's mean. Some would even call it depraved....;D
I'd bet Blo's resistance comes from realizing the system nature, the mutually implying reality of the 5 Points. That is, as nearly every Christian I've talked with about sovereign grace, Blo does not (actually) reject but agrees with the idea of sin's permeating power. The scriptures are just too explicit on this point, eg, Ps 14:1-3, Mt 15:19. Christians, by grace, have at least an inkling of their own sin, that it is God that enabled them to see themselves as sinners.
But many times I've met Christians who bought the Depravity point without seeing it as necessarily Total Depravity. I've met many who would even agree with 4 of the 5 points (guess which they waffled on?), then decide to reject that with which they'd agreed. Blo's struggle reminds me of these folks. They see an entire system a part of which they still wrestle with. So they waffle on even that which they know is truth in order to avoid that awful critter (the "horned dilemna").
9. Mark
- 01/16/2010 7:12 pm CST
Ok, so it appears that I have to defend myself. (I won’t address the Pelagianism comment because I know that was a joke.) :-)
It is unfortunate that the “grilling” began with Total Depravity because that did not strike to the heart of my position. The rest of my position didn’t make it past the cutting room floor I guess.
Thanks to Roy for your defense against the fairness of a “wee hours” video “grilling” (as defined in an earlier post by Bill).
As for Total Depravity:
As you can see from the video I asked Jared to define Total Depravity. His definition threw me from the beginning. He defined it as, “The total inability to choose good apart from God choosing you first”. The word “good” threw me which is why I asked him to repeat it. His definition sounds more like “absolute depravity” to me – which I do reject. I think that the worst people in world have some human good in them.
As for the question that should have been asked, “Do I think that man has the ability to choose God apart from God’s gift of grace and faith?” My answer is, no (Ephesians 2:8).
So where does that leave me, sounds Calvinist so far. My reasons for rejecting Calvinism are: 1. My view of Calvinism as a system that I am uncomfortable wholly supporting because I find uncertainties in some of the points. 2. My view that God’s revealed will is that all men be saved (1 Tim 2:4). And God gives man a universal offer of salvation. 3. My view of human responsibility and its role in the salvation experience.
As far as the 5 points, I see them as a neat system (that I am very familiar with by the way) that attempts to fully define something that I still consider a mystery. I respect the Calvinist position (and even consider myself a monergist) but since I do see it as a system that must be embraced completely I have to reject it as such.
The Role of Human Responsibility
My off screen comments reflect the fact that I believe there is a balance (or tension) between God’s Sovereignty and Human Responsibility. (Some Calvinists would agree wholeheartedly, I think). But, because I have a higher view (not a high view) of man’s responsibility in the salvation experience than Calvinists I don’t believe I can consider myself a true Calvinist. It is too bad we are not talking about “degrees” of Calvinism.
I think it is universally accepted that men are morally responsible for their actions (or no need for an atonement) and this is supported in scripture. The question is, does that responsibility extend into the salvation experience and can man choose either path? I think it does and they can (somehow) and this is where I differ from most Calvinists. I also think this fits into what I see as God’s reveled will in His universal call to salvation for all man.
I am not a strict determinist. I believe people are morally responsible for their actions and I think this belief along with my reading of scripture leads me to the conclusion that God’s sovereignty AND man’s moral responsibilities somehow act together (incomprehensibly) in God’s plan of salvation. Therefore both (somehow) are necessary conditions for salvation. God preordained everything AND man has real choices and responsibilities. I believe in election and predestination (because the Bible tells me so) AND I believe man has the real ability to choose (either path) and the freedom to do so. In a nutshell my uncertainties are probably more with irresistible grace and limited atonement than any of the others.
Again, I know my views seemingly contradict themselves…I am ok with that. In the light of the Bible these are not absurdities but these are incomprehensible and I am ok with that. I am not wrestling with this at all. I am very comfortable not having all the answers and not having a label that I neatly fit into.
Since I don’t have time to do a thorough exposition of passages that I think support my views and since I do not desire to throw out “proof texts” to support them (Romans 10, Jeremiah 18, John 3, for example *wink*) I’ll leave that work to others that may support my views and have more time to defend them. I know I’ll get bashed for this but such is life in Thinklingdom. Love (or have manly affection for) you guys.
Romans 11:33-34 Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! "Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?"
Leave a Comment:
Blo looks even more evil when he's wearing his Black Rider/Nazgul hoodie.