"The abnegation of reason is not the evidence of faith, but the confession of despair."
- J.B. Lightfoot
Tuesday, May 10, 2011
John Piper answers the question, "Did Christ descend into hell, as the Apostles' Creed states?"
There are two passages in the New Testament that, taken a certain way, would seem to indicate that he did. One is in Ephesians 4:9 where it says that Christ descended into the lower parts of the earth. This probably means that he descended to the earth, which is the lower parts. The "of" there doesn't mean that he is going under the earth. So I don't think that text warrants the interpretation that he descended into hell.We have been reciting the Apostles' Creed corporately at my church each Sunday for the last year. At that point in the creed, rather than not reciting the traditional line, we have changed it (making a translator's interpretation) to read "He received the wrath of God." This captures the spirit of the credal line, echoes Calvin's view of this portion of the creed, and, in our estimation, is biblically accurate.
The other text is 1 Peter 3:18-20 where it says that Christ went to speak to the spirits who are now in bondage. That is, they have died—having lived in the days of Noah—and they are now in bondage; and Christ went to speak to them. Some take that to mean that between Good Friday and Easter Christ went to hell and he preached the gospel there. But I don't think that is the meaning of this text either. I think it means that when these people were alive in the days of Noah, in the Spirit Christ spoke to them through the preaching of Noah; and now they are in prison.
So my conclusion is that there is no textual basis for believing that Christ descended into hell. In fact, he said to the thief on the cross, "Today you will be with me in paradise." That's the only clue we have as to what Jesus was doing between death and resurrection. He said, "Today—this Friday afternoon, after we're both dead—you and I will be in paradise together." I don't think the thief went to hell and that hell is called paradise. I think he went to heaven and that Jesus was there with him.
So I don't say that phrase "he descended into hell" when I recite the Apostle's Creed. But study it yourself and see whether you think there are other foundations for it. As for me, though, I would say that the foundation for that particular sentence in the Apostle's Creed is pretty weak biblically.
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Comments on "Did Jesus Go to Hell?":
2. Bill
- 05/10/2011 9:29 pm CDT
Actually, The Champion is a highly metaphorical view of the Incarnation, Atonement and Resurrection.
:-)
(just pulling your chain, nhe, sort of, but I also wanted to defend Carmen, at the risk of being laughed off the Christian blogosphere . . . that song doesn't say anything about Jesus going to hell.
No, I don't own any Carmen 8-Tracks.
4. Justin
- 05/11/2011 2:05 am CDT
It drives me nuts how people don't bother to do research on things and just change them without any good reason.
It's CarMAN....not CarMEN, people!!! ;)
5. Tony
- 05/11/2011 6:28 am CDT
The Jude passage could link (no proof) to 1 Pet 3 :
Jude 1:6
And I remind you of the angels who did not stay within the limits of authority God gave them but left the place where they belonged. God has kept them securely chained in prisons of darkness, waiting for the great day of judgment.
The question I've always had is why would Jesus "preach" to angels or human spirits in hell? Isn't it too late? Was Jesus spiking the football :)
Of course the "danger" of linking the Jude verse with 1 Pet 3:19 leads one to head down the doctrinal path of the sons of man in Genesis 6 were angels that possessed men or even the freakier thought of angels (demons) having sexual relations with mankind.
7. Bill
- 05/11/2011 8:21 am CDT
About Carman/Carmen - my mistake - I thought "Carman" but followed nhe's lead. :-)
Nhe - you know I sometimes can be insufferable about this stuff, but Carman is a brother, whether you or I like his music or not, and he was accused of being unbiblical. I know it was just a comment made in jest, but I didn't remember anything from the song that talked about Jesus in hell, so I googled the lyrics.
The song "The Champion" is metaphorical (a boxing metaphor) that describes Jesus defeating satan in three basic "rounds". Round 1 is in the 40 days in the wilderness. Round 2 is on the cross. Round 3 is the Resurrection.
Yeah, it's cheesy and the cool kids don't listen to it (although, trust me, they did in the 80s), but it's only unbiblical in that Jesus and satan didn't really box. Again, that's the metaphor. The Biblical truth is that Jesus has defeated satan and the forces of darkness, in the incarnation (the example given is in the tempation in the wilderness), in the atonement (on the cross), and in the resurrection.
Again, not a big deal. I'm just defending a brother.
8. Bill
- 05/11/2011 8:25 am CDT
Following up, to be fair.
I have no idea what Carman believes about that line in the Apostles creed. It is more prevalent in the Pentacostal ranks (which he definitely catered too) to hear that Jesus went to hell. Some go so far as to say that he suffered in hell, which is completely unbiblical.
So, I have no idea what Carman thinks about that. Again, I was just going off the lyrics of the song you mentioned.
10. Karl
- 05/11/2011 9:23 am CDT
I think it's a stretch for Piper to say:
"my conclusion is that there is no textual basis for believing that Christ descended into hell"
. . . immediately after he discusses texts which CAN be interpreted to mean that Jesus descended into hell.
"No textual basis" is a pretty strong statement. He would have been better off using different words, IMO. I have no problem with Piper's interpretation of the text - his belief that Jesus didn't literally descend into hell. But his phraseology is typical of the posture that so many non-reformed find hard to swallow from certain people in the reformed camp when they discuss non-salvific issues of interpretation that Christians can and do disagree about. "My interpretation of this passage is X" too often extends to "and there is no textual basis for any interpretation but mine." Even though for millennia some Christians have in fact looked at the same text and interpreted it differently, and one of the most ancient creeds of the church apparently interprets it differently.
11. Scott Roche
- 05/11/2011 10:38 am CDT
I'm with Karl here. Piper says "This probably means that he descended to the earth" followed up with a pretty definite statement that "I don't think that text warrants the interpretation that he descended into hell." Why doesn't it warrant it? Just because Piper doesn't think so? Weak sauce.
And regarding Jesus's words to the thief on the cross, there's plenty there to suggest that Jesus meant "I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise" meant that he was saying it on that day, not that the thief would be in paradise on that day.
On the whole I can't say definitively that Jesus did or did not go to Hell/Sheol/Gehenna/whatever, but I say the creed as is.
12. Scott Roche
- 05/11/2011 10:39 am CDT
Oh and as CHEESY as Carman often is, The Champion still give me chills. No lie.
13. nhe
- 05/11/2011 3:47 pm CDT
Wow folks - I didn't mean to stir up controversy by mentioning the Carman song.......I don't like it, but I suppose you're right - it is pretty harmless.......I'm not a big Carman fan though, having been to a few of his concerts, I get a real strong prosperity gospel vibe........not saying he ascribes to that, its just the vibe I get.
14. Bill
- 05/11/2011 9:50 pm CDT
nhe,
I had a really bad experience at a Carman concert, too, way back in the day, mainly because I was stupid enough to invite a bunch of non-Christian kids I was very inexpertly trying to encourage and disciple and lead to Jesus through Campus Life, and the concert totally freaked them out because we were surrounded by pentacostals loudly yelling in tongues. I pretty much lost all those kids that night, as far as them ever trusting me again.
It wasn't Carman's fault, but just letting you know that I know where you're coming from.
16. nhe
- 05/12/2011 6:40 am CDT
Bill - yeah - full disclosure........the FIRST time I saw Carman was in 1982 - he was opening for the Imperials, and he was AWESOME - just him and his guitar. He was humble, gracious, unassuming, fun, and immensely talented. To this day, it may be the best opening act I've seen at a live concert.
Then I saw him several years later on the "Champion Tour". He actually broke out in tongues several times (not just the crowd) and when he wasn't doing that, he was asking for money for his ministry.....he literally spent more time speaking than singing. It was a huge turn off for me. Since then I've seen him on TBN when channel surfing on occasion and I just can't take him seriously. Its a shame - he's a talented guy.
17. Bill
- 05/12/2011 1:47 pm CDT
nhe - I hear ya.
Tony - LOL! I was thinking you could call us the Fox Bloggers. Always chasing rabbits . . .
Leave a Comment:
so that Carmen song where he says "Jesus is the champion" isn't biblical? I'm sooooo disillusioned.......j/k - I've always said "show me" when people have said He was in hell....this is good confirmation.