I was converted Assemblies of God, so this subject resulted in a huge crisis of faith for me. I thought my pastor was "doing" miracles every week. It was years before I noticed that even though I was in his church, I never heard about any of them after the service was over.

That miracles never happened for me was a crushing disappointment. When the lack of miracles was combined with my personal lack of holiness, I was driven to the brink of suicide (there was also a girl in the mix, but it was my religion that drove me to the brink of madness.)

I cannot see anywhere that God has limited Himself, so I fall on the "for" side of the discussion, but I have no personal evidence for or against.

Kevin and Manders,
Thanks for your comments. I'm with you both. I think the three of us are all on the same page.

So Kevin, if you are not Assemblies of God anymore, what are you? And I'm curious, what did your church teach? That supernatural healings occurred every sunday in the church service?

I think Manders words serve as the necessary corrective for this kind of thinking. But I'd really love to hear more about the Assemblies of God teaching on this subject from a former insider if you are willing Keith.

Thank you both.

I'm all over the FOR side. I fully believe that miracles do still happen today. I guess this is one of those areas like the gifts of the Spirit where some would argue that they ended with the Apostles but I think there are to many recorded incidents that refute (imho) that position.
I think moreover what we see is a combination of Gods providence and his over abundent grace in our lives. I've come to recognize (yes in hind sight) the countless times God has put His people into my life when He has gotten tired of me no hearing Him directly. Not trying to make some theological argument here. But I've had 2 major times in my life, when I've been about as far away from God as a man can get, when He has put Christians into my life for implausible reasons, who have brought me crashing back onto my knees in repentance. Miracles - no, incredible providential grace - most assuredly.

Thankfully, providence happens regularly--not to be taken lightly, but acknowledged as God working in our lives. When a miracle might not be His will, for whatever reason, we are blessed with providence.

Thanks for a very enlightening post. I had never really thought of what the word "providence" means. And I'd never really put a word to what happens when "God works through natural processes to accomplish his will." Providence. Remember the TV show? Took place in Providence, RI. Dummy me, I really liked the show and sometimes found some inspirational messages quietly woven in, but never picked up on the title having that double meaning. And I'm usually guilty of analyzing way too deep.

I've begun to read about a method of storytelling used in the ancient Jewish tradition that encourages the insertion of magical happenings and general exaggeration, for the purpose of emphasizing a point. People - by my understanding - were not so caught up in whether it *happened* but what the story *means*.

I'll go with Jefferson on this one.

Bill,

I'm probably a deist (creation of the universe seems likely to have been purposeful) more than anything else.

However I would - and do - use the term 'miracle' to describe many natural things that happen. No subjectively arbitrary interferance from God is needed for my appreciation of what I call miracles.

In late 1991 I was in a car accident and hit from behind at high speed (I was stopped in traffic). My orthopedic specialist did evaluated the damage to my neck and upper body from the impact. That Sunday I did make it to church, strolling in slowing and wearing a heavy neck brace. I'm not much for medications so I was in some degree of pain. At the point in the service where they call people up if they want to pray with the elder, I went up and met with one of those stately old gentlemen of the faith and one other man I can't remember. He prayer any yes I, me, the skeptic-wanting-to-believe, was healed. No fanfare. No "seed faith" gifts. No publicly. But I did walk back to my seat with the neck brace in my hand. On my follow-up appointment with the orthopedic doctor (we were support to go over the complete damage evaluation, plan therapy and renew meds) I walked in and handed him the brace. I explained what happened and all he said (after a pregnant pause) was, "Um, I've heard of things like this before."

This is serves as a reminder to me that:
1) God still works miracles to His purpose and glory.
2) Even in AssembLIES of God church there are some humble followers of God.
3) See #1

Miracle, to me, seems to be a bit of a misnomer. If Dallas Willard is right, then the Kingdom of the heavens is all around us. That is a kingdom where it is not unnatural for wonders to happen because wonders, are a part of the nature of that kingdom. It isn't simply a matter of the laws of physics being suspended. Rather it is a matter of a process of physics whereby water becomes wine because the h20 takes on the molecular properties of wine - because God knows how to do that - and do it in a very short period of time.

Hobo, interesting thoughts. There are some pretty reputable scientists and philosophers today who would deny that deism is a reasonable option. Too many things that have happened post Big Bang to assume that some kind of intelligent intervention has not taken place. Glad you found this a place to discuss your thoughts!

Good article, Andwise. It just occurred to me that a man in my company was hit by lightning at the end of May ('hit' meaning the bolt struck his head, traversed his body, and left him through one foot) and it appears he will fully recover. No short term memory loss. No brain damage. Lots of burns, but he's healing well. Many extraordinary things happened to bring about this result. We're calling it a miracle.

Alan, I think you are right. I was speaking phenominologiccally (sp!) and was thinking from kind of a human perspective there. ANd you have clarified my thinking on this a bit. (At least you made it easier for me to put the idea of God sustaining us into words. Thanks.)

Do you think it's possible though to speak of the "laws of physics" (but mean what you said), so that people can understand us in our current societal context?

Alan,

I understand your quibble, but I don't understand what evidence you bring to bear to support it. "In Him all things consist" seems a little weak on which to hang such an argument. I'm not sure I'm antagonistic to the idea, but it is very foreign to me.

Do you mean that God providentially determines every random fluxuation of every quark in the universe (multiverse?)

Kevin: To rehearse the evidence:

The scriptures tell us that God has ordained all things. He works out all things according to the counsel of his own will (Eph 1:11).
The LORD works out everything for his own ends- even the wicked for a day of disaster. Proverbs 16:4

This extends to things that we think of as chance– such as the roll of dice.
The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD. Proverbs 16:33

This pertains to even the minute details of our lives and our inmost thoughts and desires.
In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps. Proverbs 16:9
The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases. Proverbs 21:1

So, since we are told that God ordains all things, I take it that he ordains all the physical events and activities of the universe. Elsewhere in scripture we are instructed that this occurs on the basis of God’s ongoing activity in the world, not merely as a result of the earlier act of creation working itself out over time.

I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things. Isaiah 45:7.

Saying that God now forms the light and creates darkness shows that his providential hand is active and current. Individual expressions of light and darkness are his works of art, not the bare results of his prior creative acts. He uses the sun and moon as tools for this (cf. Jeremiah 31:35), but they are not on autopilot.

Similarly, in Jeremiah 31:35, we are told that God stirs up the sea to make the waves roar. This is not a miraculous event. The sea is always churning and roaring. And this scripture tells us that God is there orchestrating every clash of the waves.

None of this really speaks of atoms or quarks directly, but I think that those sorts of things are included when we talk about God ordaining all things; plus, the light, the waves, and other things are composed of atoms, waves, particles, or whatever else makes the list of the constituent parts of the universe. In light of this, the notion that the laws of physics are things which exist and
which God must break in order to accomplish miracles seems not only foreign to the conception of providence outlined in these scriptures, but also superfluous in their light, as well as an undue hindrance in the case for miracles.

But to stress again, in response to Cos, I have no problem speaking of the laws of physics/etc., so long as we are clear that we are talking about our observations of the habits of a faithful God, not things which have an existence apart from the continuous sustaining work of the creator.

All of this to me has great pastoral value. We frequently talk about how God can call us home at any time, yet I think we miss some of the force of that without this understanding of providence. God actively keeps me in existence at every moment. If he stopped willing that I exist, then I would vanish. To me he makes an active gift of every successive breath, and moment to moment, I serve at his pleasure. As for evangelism, we should remember the same is true of the ungodly. This view of providence– that it is the active hand of God which keeps sinners alive and temporarily safe above the pit of hell– is what undergirds Jonathan Edwards’ classic sermon, Sinners in the Hands
of an Angry God. For an amusing introduction, check

Thank you, Alan.

I will have to cogitate on this for a couple days.

I agree with everything you have said, but am not sure that your conclusion is valid. I agree that the Lord ordained from before creation each lot cast in the lap, and that He alone turns each heart. I also believe, however, that the earth orbits around the sun as opposed to the other way around.

It might be rational to conclude that the earth does that because God happens to be in the habit keeping it doing so, but that is not satisfying to me. It might also be irrational. A few hundred years ago most other people, and very dedicated people, were willing to declare on the basis solid scriptural analysis that God was in the habit of keeping the sun going around the earth.

If I already believe that God ordains and intervenes, and that He brings evil and good, then what benefit is it to me to discard science?

Alan,

Your points are well made, but I don't think I can go with you all the way to the apparent conclusion. I think that a universe without laws eventually impinges on moral agency. Even in Edwards' Strict Analysis of that Freedom of the Will supposed ...&c I don't remember him arguing against agency, only against contingent agency. I looked through it briefly last night, but didn't find any directly relevant passages (but I did find a couple of sermons I had forgotten I wanted to read.)

In the end, I am probably overreacting because I was raised to be a dogmatic young earth creationist by people who were unable to look at both sides of the creation argument. To be more exact, they were too ignorant to evaluate the scientific side of the argument. Unfortunately, they considered themselves so steeped in bible truth that they did not need to evaluate the science. Knowing the Saviour of the world, however, did not qualify them to talk about dating mechanisms.

I think you and I agree on the points that matter. It is God, in His grace and apart from our wills, Who saves us, and His salvation is to the end. Maybe there's a predestination thread somewhere where we can discuss mechanisms, but it's hardly necessary. I worship with you the Glory of God in ordering all things to His own perfect and compassionate end.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts!