"Patzer sees check, Patzer makes check."

- Bobby Fischer
Home Of The Depraved

From a blog post by John Piper, "Will America Be Judged?"

What brought the nations of Canaan to that point of judgment? Here are the sins Moses was referring to:

1. Adultery.

Verse 20: “You shall not lie sexually with your neighbor’s wife . . .”

2. Child sacrifice (we call it abortion).

Verse 21: “You shall not give any of your children to offer them to Molech, and so profane the name of your God: I am the Lᴏʀᴅ.”

3. Homosexual intercourse.

Verse 22: “You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.”

4. Bestiality.

Verse 23: “And you shall not lie with any animal and so make yourself unclean with it: . . . it is perversion.”

In the West, we have moved to the point of open approval of adultery, child-killing, and homosexual intercourse. Will the open approval of bestiality be next? Probably. Last week, the Huffington Post reported a woman finding on her boyfriend’s phone pictures of him having sex with her dog.

Fifty Years from Now?

Our reaction to this is probably about the same as most people’s reaction to so-called homosexual “marriage” fifty years ago. Is there any good reason to doubt that in fifty years the laws against bestiality (zoophilia) will have fallen the same way laws against homosexual intercourse have fallen in recent years? (And as for “marriage,” Wikipedia already has an entry on “human-animal marriage.”)


Read the whole thing here.

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Comments on "Home Of The Depraved":
1. Andrew - 02/26/2014 4:17 am CST

I still think that it's a gigantic leap to think that beastiality will become an accepted norm any time in the near future. All the factors that have led to the widespread legalization of gay marriage and acceptance of homosexuality - the gay rights movement, the greater visibility of gays in public and private life, the eventual co-opting of the issue by a major American party - have no positive momentum in the case of beastiality. There are many things I will believe about my own culture, and I will not discount that the eventual legalization of beastiality is possible, but I cannot believe that it is at all likely. For one, I think that the rise of the animal rights movement makes it less likely, as we would almost certainly have to establish animal consent to allow it legally. Proving that beastiality is not animal rape seems to me an impossible legal case.

It does not make any sense to me culturally or politically. Fifty years is a long time, and much can change. I'd be extremely surprised if beastiality (and to a lesser extent, polygamy) became legalized in America any time in the near future. It simply doesn't compute with what I know about political movements.

2. Karl - 02/26/2014 6:25 am CST

I agree with Andrew. I think polygamy has a greater chance of gaining some level of acceptance, as I have trouble seeing a principled rationale limiting marriage to two people, if society has already decided that marriage shouldn't be limited to a union of two different genders. The limitation of number seems just as arbitrary and "unfair" as the limitation to male-female unions. (note I am not saying this is my personal position - just that once the definition of marriage as male/female has been changed I don't see a secular reason to then hold the line on marriage being between just 2 people).

Does Piper say why he singles America out in the question of God's judgment? If anything we are behind many other countries in the world on those issues. Are they ahead of us in line for national judgment in his view?

3. NHE - 02/26/2014 8:10 am CST


Does Piper say why he singles America out in the question of God's judgment? If anything we are behind many other countries in the world on those issues. Are they ahead of us in line for national judgment in his view?


That was exactly the question I thought of when I read this.

I also somewhat reject the notion of steady moral decline or downward spiral being linked to some kind of pending judgement being rendered by God prior the ultimate judgement that is coming when Christ returns. God judged cultures and nations in the OT, but I don't think that necessarily means that God judges cultures today as He did then.

And is culture REALLY in some kind of new state of moral decline? Yes, we have seen cultural approval in recent years be given to practices our culture once deemed to be immoral, but that has more to do with our culture's desire to be thought of as "progressive" than it does with our culture's "eroding morals".

Truth has been suppressed in unrighteousness since before Romans 1 was written. We're not getting progressively worse, we're just witnessing what the dark night of the soul looks like in more tactile, visual ways because technology enables to see sin that past generations could not see....or have access to.

4. Bird - 02/26/2014 12:17 pm CST

Good points, guys.

For one, I think that the rise of the animal rights movement makes it less likely, as we would almost certainly have to establish animal consent to allow it legally.

I've thought about that and I think the idea would be that there is no such thing as established animal consent to allow animal ownership. In other words, we own animals because we take them, often against their "will." Same idea, I think, could be applied to animal-human "marriage."

Does Piper say why he singles America out in the question of God's judgment?

I suspect it's because he's an American writing to Americans. Maybe secondarily he'd also suggest that America is still economic and cultural leader of the world.

5. Andrew - 02/26/2014 8:21 pm CST

I've thought about that and I think the idea would be that there is no such thing as established animal consent to allow animal ownership. In other words, we own animals because we take them, often against their "will." Same idea, I think, could be applied to animal-human "marriage."

Possibly, but I don't think that that argument could really come from the far-left (where I assume it would have to come from). The further to the left you go, the more entrenched the environmentalism and animal liberation movements are, and the less the notion of "ownership" has any real standing. Simply from a political standpoint, I just don't the type of coalition needed to enable such a change emerging from anywhere on the American political spectrum within my lifetime.

6. Karl - 02/27/2014 8:34 am CST

I agree again with Andrew. It just seems like a complete political non-starter. While the practice exists, there isn't the sympathy/empathy factor for it necessary to build a coalition. Maybe if libertarians took over the country I could see it.

As far as the US being increasingly depraved in some new way because some people participate in this, I also agree with NHE that there is nothing new under the sun. Apparently the practice was prevalent enough in the time of the OT that laws had to be made prohibiting it. You generally don't take the trouble to prohibit something that nobody is doing or wanting to do in the first place.

7. Neo - 02/27/2014 9:15 am CST

The #2 point is also manifest in the "1-2 children are enough" mindset of many evangelical Christians. Its just sacrificing children on a different altar (self).

8. Bird - 02/27/2014 10:56 am CST

The #2 point is also manifest in the "1-2 children are enough" mindset of many evangelical Christians. Its just sacrificing children on a different altar (self).

In that scenario the children never exist in order to sacrifice. So how is that "child sacrifice"? Don't think that analogy works here.

9. dbd - 02/27/2014 11:10 am CST

I think polygamy has a greater chance of gaining some level of acceptance,

To an extent this is happening now. Last fall California passed a law allowing kids to have more than two legally recognized parents, which as it happened was just in time for a polyamorous family I know whose first child was born in December.

And it looks like in this case - as with gay marriage - California was not the pioneer. In googling to check my facts before posting I found that four other states and DC already had similar laws.

10. Blake - 02/28/2014 10:55 am CST

The #2 point is also manifest in the "1-2 children are enough" mindset of many evangelical Christians. Its just sacrificing children on a different altar (self).

Wow, I had to comment on this. To imply couples are sinning if they choose to limit the number of children they have is a pretty difficult claim to support biblically.

11. Quaid - 02/28/2014 1:34 pm CST

Unfortunately, I think bestiality is going to happen much more quickly than we anticipate. I give it about 20-30 years, or so. It's already legal in some countries around the world, such as Denmark.

Ironically, I think that Christian doctrine (animals are subject to man) will be used to support the concept. Outside of Christian doctrine, animals will be believed to have consented after an established time period with their "master".

Polygamy will be legal relatively soon, too. As far as homosexuality goes, I think the ship has sailed. Of course, we will have to wait and see how the Supreme Court rules on the cases before them next year, assuming the cases are taken up.

As far as judgment goes, who knows what that might look like. I can see our nation falling into the hands of Islamic leaders and, ultimately, a form of Sharia law. I believe that this is how European countries will be "judged." The US will simply follow suit with only its Constitution to protect her. I don't mention this to be xenophobic or to prompt some sort of Savage-like culture war.

As usual, our only hope is Christ. I think one of the best things we can do is to reach out, befriend, and love our Muslim neighbors in hopes that we make the Gospel, and therefore our faith, attractive to them.

12. NHE - 02/28/2014 2:49 pm CST

Quaid: As far as judgment goes, who knows what that might look like. I can see our nation falling into the hands of Islamic leaders and, ultimately, a form of Sharia law. I believe that this is how European countries will be "judged." The US will simply follow suit with only its Constitution to protect her. I don't mention this to be xenophobic or to prompt some sort of Savage-like culture war.

I don't read this as a form of judgment, maybe it's semantics but, I think the scenario you're describing here is just a possible logical consequence to legislative and economic choices that go against God's design.

We all experience consequences for our choices in our own lives, but I don't think that means we're being "judged".....I would project that same scenario onto a culture or nation based on a New Testament understanding of judgement.

13. Quaid - 03/03/2014 2:02 pm CST

This is important:

based on a New Testament understanding of judgement

NHE, what is your understanding of NT judgment, as opposed to judgment in the OT, or otherwise?

14. Bill - 03/03/2014 2:39 pm CST

Just to insert myself here, in response to Quaid's last comment.

I heard this recently, and I don't remember where (maybe Piper?), but it stopped me cold and I've been pondering it since.

Here's the thing: we keep saying "Look at all the depravity - when will God judge us?"

What I didn't take into account is that the depravity is God's wrath, revealed. His wrath is giving us up to what we, in our flesh, want. In other words, we're already under judgement.

24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. (Romans 1:24-25, ESV)

15. jez - 03/04/2014 8:01 am CST

Bill: I've had that idea about Romans 1 for a few years, but I think this is the first time I've read someone else expound it. Eager to see what the other thinklings make of it.

16. Bill - 03/04/2014 8:13 am CST

I'd be interested in your take on it, Jez, if you get a chance to expound :-)

17. NHE - 03/04/2014 9:45 am CST

Quaid, just that under the New Covenant, it doesn't seem that God is in the business of judging nations like he did in the Old Testament.

Is there anything that suggests that He still does that today? I just don't see it, unless it's as Bill describes above, which makes sense, but seems to come from a different angle than Piper is coming from.

18. jez - 03/04/2014 10:11 am CST

The way I read it, verse 24 looks like punishment for idolatry (v23) and general godlessness (vv18-22), not the thing being punished. I imagine it like that scene in Star Trek where telepathic aliens force Kirk to kiss Uhura for their amusement.

19. dbd - 03/04/2014 7:55 pm CST

telepathic aliens force Kirk to kiss Uhura

I still don't know what you're getting at here, but you did prompt me to read the entire chapter of Romans in hopes of figuring it out, so ... net gain!

(Maybe it's because I started watching in the Picard era?)

20. jez - 03/05/2014 4:43 am CST

The Pauline epistles are pretty sketchy about the original series ;)

21. G Frederick - 03/10/2014 8:37 pm CDT

Bill, totally off topic, but when are you going to add a LIKE button so I can show my appreciation for the beautifully sarcastic comments like #20?

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