"Membership in the family of God is neither inconsequential or something to be casually ignored. The church is God's agenda for the world. Jesus said, "I will build my church, and all the powers of hell will not conquer it." The church is indestructable and will exist for eternity. It will outlive this universe, and so will your role in it."
- Rick Warren
Thursday, May 6, 2010
This is somewhat random, but how many of you are fans of John Lennon's song, Imagine?
I was a huge fan of the Beatles back in the day, and I mourned when Lennon got shot (yes, I'm old enough to remember that well), but I have never gotten why people love that song so much. The lyrics are atheistic and inane. And, as the multi-millionaire himself probably knew when he penned the lines "imagine no possessions. I wonder if you can?", the song drips with hypocrisy. Given what we now know about the lovely atheistic, communistic utopias of Pol Pot, Mao, Stalin, etc., the song is nonsense on stilts.
Jay Nordlinger comments on the song:
A number of letters have come in about the song, and I wanted to publish two of them. The first is from a friend of mine — an American who grew up in Communist Czechoslovakia, escaping with her family when she was 16. She writes,
“That John Lennon song always bothered me. It reminded me of the spoiled children of the ‘West.’ They had everything they could possibly want, and they were free. Yet they complained. And, worse, they promoted ideas and regimes that were senselessly destroying other people’s lives.”
The second note offers a different take. A reader from Iowa writes,
“When ‘Imagine’ was new, and I was young, I, of course, took it literally as the way the world should work. Since at least partially growing up (being 57 now), I have come to understand John Lennon as one sarcastic SOB who delighted in demonstrations of his superiority over lesser beings. I am thinking that ‘Imagine’ was meant as a send-up of liberal utopia, an insult hidden in the open.”
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Comments on "Imagine":
3. Andrew
- 05/07/2010 12:44 am CDT
Lennon was always kind of a self-righteous jerk, but he wrote some brilliant songs (most of which were with the Beatles). I never liked "Imagine" really, but it's idealism, and people will always latch onto that.
I try to be careful about making atheism a political issue. I don't credit the purges to atheism in the same way I don't credit the Inquisition to the Catholic Church. It's helpful to have those facts on hand whenever someone brings up the crimes of the Church, but I don't like politicizing those issues. Ideology doesn't make people do what they do. It gives them an excuse, but killing 30,000,000 people is not the logical extension of atheism, however sad the thought of believing in nothing makes me. Trouble comes from the heart, and it seeps into every human heart, no matter the time, class, race, religion, or political party. It's in all of us, and there but for the grace of God go I.
4. Daniel Ross
- 05/07/2010 6:34 am CDT
Agree with all of that, plus it's just not a very good song (IMO, of course).
5. jez
- 05/07/2010 6:35 am CDT
Well Lennon was a great artist, not a great thinker; and Imagine is a pop song, not a thesis. As such, I don't require that it make sense, only that it resonates with how I feel sometimes, and sometimes I do yearn for simplicity and the absence of whatever it is I momentarily perceive to be getting in my way. Countries, possessions, and not religion in my case, but I know that would be relevant for many.
Imagine doesn't happen to do that much for me melodically, but it must be alright cos lots of people do like it. I prefer "revolution", another song of his with flawed politics. Sometimes I feel like that too, can't quite decide whether to be counted "in" or "out".
6. Bill
- 05/07/2010 6:52 am CDT
Good comments all.
My main problem with Imagine and songs/philosophies like it is that you might as well say "Imagine if 2 + 2 = 37"
This points to a big problem that I have with communism and many forms of socialism: they are the idealistic (and, initially, I'm sure, well-intentioned) attempt to build a just, equitable society out of what Jonah Goldberg has termed "the crooked timber of human nature"
Yes, it would be great if everyone lived for the good of all, if there was a brotherhood of man, if countries didn't rise up against each other and desire to take what the other has. And if ifs and buts were fruits and nuts we'd have Christmas every day :-)
Andrew - point very well taken, and I agree. I also think a true atheist (meaning, a truly "godless" person) is very rare. Communism filled the god-gap for its people with worship of the state and its leaders. Nazism did the same for its legions of otherwise good-standing Lutherans, standing at the top of the ramp sending women and children to the gas. Human sacrifice becomes possible when you worship a god who is pleased with it.
I think that a lot of the popularity of Imagine has to do with what it evokes in the human heart. We do yearn for a release from the constant scrabbling and jostling that is human life. In rare instances, and for short times (the first century NT church, for instance, along with other small, tight-knit communities (the Amish?) ) man has gotten close to the ideal. But we won't be able to fully realize that blessed state of a "brotherhood of man" until the Kingdom comes in its fullness.
7. damien
- 05/07/2010 7:31 am CDT
it's funny how they will use this song at times to stir sentiments of world peace and togetherness. especially since the message is ultimately one of being together in an impersonal universe devoid of meaning or purpose. let's sit around the campfire and glory in nihilism. how cozy...
8. nhe
- 05/07/2010 10:43 am CDT
I have a totally different take on the song......I don't like it (because I think Lennon is wrong) but I do respect it.
To me, the lyrics in this song are similar to a lot of songs from the 60's. There is a longing in the songwriters not really for atheism, so much as for a utopia - a "heaven here on earth". I think that that longing is Biblical and comes with being an image bearer.
Lennon's view of how "religion" described heaven was that it was somewhere in the sky, not here. He wanted it here - that's why he said "imagine there's no heaven" - no place "up there".
I think his desire was healthy and right. Crosby, Stills and Nash sang "we've got to get ourselves back to the garden". Both songs are longing for (really) the garden - pre-fall.
Lennon just didn't realize that the Bible (and not religion) explains the fulfillment of his deepest longing. God will redeem the earth - there is no heaven "up there" - but there will be a utopia (what we call heaven) here.
If I had the same view of God and religion that Lennon had (and a lot of people have) I'd be an atheist too.
I have to believe that (somewhere along his journey) Lennon suppressed the truth in unrighteousness and concluded that God wasn't the answer - but he was asking the right question.
9. jez
- 05/07/2010 10:51 am CDT
Why should we be any less together or peaceful in an impersonal universe? As an atheist, I don't think I yearn for peace and companionship any less than I did as a Christian.
For my money, nihilism is just as ironically cosy as fatalism (and fatalism has about as much to do with theism as nihilism does with atheism).
11. Lars Walker
- 05/07/2010 12:40 pm CDT
I hate the song a) because it's sentimentality posing as profundity (the sort of philosophy that gets concocted under the influence of pot), and b) because it's essentially totalitarian. See my parody here.
12. Shrode
- 05/07/2010 1:05 pm CDT
I hate it.
I'm glad you asked.
I remember being a senior in high school. (1991) and that got picked as our class song...
WHAT??!?!?!?! I had never even heard of the song before I saw it on the ballot. (The people who drew up the ballot were on student council, and the people on student council were the hippie nerd types. So I guess it made sense.)
So that was selected as our class song. I had never even heard the song and it was my class song?
So one day in college, my senior year in college, 4 years later, I'm laying in bed and my alarm clock radio goes off. I hear this silly song and start listening to the words..."Imagine there's no religion"...I hear and I thought, "Oh, my gosh. That must be our class song. That must be "Imagine". I think I'll listen to it." I did.
Hated it, hated it, hated it.
If I ever meet those idiots who selected that as our class song, I'll hit them.
(Considering the era and what was popular (both in terms of lifestyle and music) in my school, it really should have been "Dr. Feelgood" by Motley Crue or "I've Got friends in low places" by Garth Brooks.
Both pagan songs, but both are light years better than "Imagine."
13. Evan
- 05/07/2010 6:35 pm CDT
jez,
I don't think I understand what you are saying regarding fatalism and nihilism. Perhaps you can explain further.
Personally, I have long thought that complete nihilism is the only logical conclusion for an atheist. And since I have never in my life found any person remotely close or capable of being a complete nihilist, to me it is strong evidence that atheism can't be correct.
14. Andrew
- 05/07/2010 7:04 pm CDT
Personally, I have long thought that complete nihilism is the only logical conclusion for an atheist. And since I have never in my life found any person remotely close or capable of being a complete nihilist, to me it is strong evidence that atheism can't be correct.
Honest question: Assuming that you're right about complete nihilism being the logical extension of atheism (a debatable claim, I think), isn't it true that the existence of God is not contingent on the way people live? If you met a complete nihilist, would you then conclude that the existence of God is a little less likely than it was before you met a complete nihilist?
15. Michele
- 05/07/2010 8:54 pm CDT
I was in Bible School when Lennon was shot. I remember my teacher greeted us the morning after, saying, "Imagine there's no John Lennon."
What's really ironic is how they play this song in "The Killing Fields" during the scene where the two friends barely make it out alive of a Godless government rule.
17. Evan
- 05/07/2010 10:15 pm CDT
Honest question: Assuming that you're right about complete nihilism being the logical extension of atheism (a debatable claim, I think), isn't it true that the existence of God is not contingent on the way people live?
Yes, the existence of God is not contingent on anything.
If you met a complete nihilist, would you then conclude that the existence of God is a little less likely than it was before you met a complete nihilist?
From a purely logical standpoint, yes, if I ever met a complete nihilist, I would believe that would bolster the claims of atheists. But I'm convinced it will never happen, as I believe it is impossible to even imagine such a person/creature.
It is along the same lines as C.S. Lewis' line that there is no such thing as independent badness, or 'badness for badness sake'. There is only spoiled goodness. Badness is dependent on goodness for its definition. Likewise meaninglessness is dependent on meaning for its definition.
18. jez
- 05/10/2010 9:00 am CDT
Evan, fatalism is kind of like a form of nihilism, perhaps? Is there any point in things happening if events are all following a predestined course?
I don't particularly agree that theism implies fatalism, but I think that hypothesis is roughly as appealing as your belief that atheism implies nihilism.
20. Evan
- 05/10/2010 5:51 pm CDT
Is there any point in things happening if events are all following a predestined course?
Well, of course that depends on who the author is. Every book I have read or film I have watched has a predestined course, and yet, the telling and unveiling of a great story is often glorious. And the greatest glory comes from the greatest Author, who wrote the greatest story, and who controls all.
I don't particularly agree that theism implies fatalism, but I think that hypothesis is roughly as appealing as your belief that atheism implies nihilism.
Actually, I do agree that in the manner you are using the term fatalism, it also logically goes hand in hand with theism. Which is why as a Calvinist, I find such fatalism to be accurate. But, unlike you, I also find such fatalism to be extremely appealing and comforting.
So going back to your original post, I would agree that the choice can accurately be described as between atheism/nihilism or theism/fatalism. The problem remains that I know of no atheists that can truly live a life of complete nihilism, which means they are always 'borrowing' from the theists/fatalists, and defining their own brand of theism, often with themselves in the 'god' role.
21. jez
- 05/12/2010 6:09 am CDT
"they are always 'borrowing' from the theists/fatalists, and defining their own brand of theism, often with themselves in the 'god' role."
This might be true for some of them.
However, many of the theists I know seem reluctant to imagine a psychology which does not recourse to an absolute morality and objective meaning. I think this perception of yours might be a product of the way you frame the world.
Leave a Comment:
I am always amazed when I hear feedback from those folks who lived under Communist regimes. "The spoiled children of the West." Wow!! We complain about stupid, I mean stupid stuff all the time. Great post!