I don't like the phrase "Jesus makes life better," mainly because it implies we had a life of relative goodness that Jesus enhances.

But I understand the gist of it, and I suppose I agree, but only because Jesus doesn't make life better but makes dead people alive, which is obviously an improvement. :-)

I do believe in progressive sanctification, which I think is traditionally a Wesleyan convention. As a Calvinist, I am aware of the irony.

In any event, I think it's important to define "better." The continuum isn't really "parking space for your Porsche" and "pain and suffering." Life involves both ends of that spectrum for most people.
I think the way Jesus' work benefits us this side of heaven lay more in the field of the fruit of the Spirit. It's not that we have a better life necessarily, but that over time, following him exhibits the work the Spirit is doing in us: more peace, more joy, more goodness, more gentleness, etc.

Hope that makes sense.

Oh, and yes, I think it's good to teach that. :-)

It doesn't imply that to me at all. What it implies to me is that life is awful until you get Jesus . . .

Well, I'm tracking with two things generally:

1) The Bible's language is one of death/life. I know this is still in keeping with what you're saying, but there doesn't appear to be a spiritual third category for "life, just awful." There's death apart from Christ and then there's life in Christ. So I try to stick with that kind of language to capture the starkness.

2) Not all lost people sense something missing in their life, as you did. And many Christians are quite content and comfortable to subsist on things other than Jesus. Because of this, I think it's important not to assume that people automatically know life apart from Christ is awful or provides a sense of longing. When we use the language of "Jesus makes life better" it doesn't use (the above mentioned) biblical language that provokes repentance, but almost sounds like an offer of self-help. I can imagine plenty of lost people who are just fine and dandy being lost hearing "Jesus makes life better" and responding, "No thanks, I've got HD-TV and Prozac."

What I mean is, for all the people who think they've already got a pretty good life, "Jesus makes life better" doesn't sound like much of an offer.

For me it's the difference between offering Jesus as an additive and offering him as total rescue.

As an addendum, I also want to make clear that I'm not asking what works best for evangelism. But, in answer to this:

What I mean is, for all the people who think they've already got a pretty good life, "Jesus makes life better" doesn't sound like much of an offer.

I agree. But most people who think they've already got a pretty good life don't think that they are dead either.

You offer a good reminder that the Biblical language is more of a death to life picture.

I think being alive is better than being dead :-)

I think the Jesus fills the deepest longing we all have, He brings us to the place of fullness. This much I know.

I'd first ask what you - or whoever is making the statement - mean by the word "better." That is a loaded term that as you say can mean "I got a raise" or can mean "I stopped cheating on my wife, repented, she took me back and after a long road with Jesus by our side we are now experiencing redemption and reconciliation that we never dreamed possible."

So, what do you mean by "makes life better" or "makes me better"? Do you mean "I like it more?" "I am happy more of the time?" "I have fewer problems with money?" "I get sick less often?" "I sin less often - as far as I'm aware anyway?" "Less bad stuff happens to me?"

Don't we need a God's-perspetive, biblically informed definition of what is "best" before we say Jesus makes life better? I think you have such a perspective, Bill. But I think a lot of people who throw that kind of language around don't, and I think that's what others are objecting to. But we shouldn't silence the voices of those who have really experienced the joy of redemption and who DO feel like Jesus turned their night into day. Those voices need to be heard, but without marginalizing the voices of those who are in the midst of suffering, people who God has called to walk a difficult and painful path while trusting him through the darkness.

I've appreciated Dallas Willard and Richard Foster's emphases on the real difference that being a disciple of Jesus is supposed to make, and can make, in a believer's life.

I've heard Tim Keller speak on this and his point was "You can't tell Christians or non-Christians that Jesus makes (this) life better, its just not true in either case, and more importantly, its not the point."

Jared is dead on with "Jesus makes dead people alive" - and that expands in the life of the Christian to "Jesus works in us to show the world our NEW life, not our BETTER life". We are not merely "improved", we are newly born. A pre-existing life isn't made better, a new life is generated by the spirit of God.

"Better" as Karl inferred, is SOOO not the point......Jesus makes us real, alive, transformed, broken, etc............not "better".

You will probably have to ask the people you are not naming to learn whether they disagree with your points. They are excellent points. I wouldn't be surprised if they do not embrace #5 about belonging to the Body of Christ. They may believe that while that is true, the church at large has no relevance to them. Church people are part of the problem. If they believe that church people are part of the problem with Christ not improving life, then they are confessing their own complicity. I freely admit I am part of the problem in the church today.

I am also part of the solution.

nhe

Gotta run, so can't expound, but I have to ask. Why is this an "either/or" rather than a "both/and"?

Alive AND better.

So, your thoughts. Does Jesus make life better? Does Jesus make you better?

Yes, Jesus, does make our lives better. This betterment occurs primarily in the soul, although it sometimes manifests in our temporal lives, this is not a necessary part of it. that is why we have saints among the rich and the poor.

the sad thing is that many tend to equate Christ's promise with material promise. Yet, Our Lord never promised that. Instead, he warned that Christians would (take up ur cross daily and follow me) and should (you will have... and persecutions as well) have much to suffer, but in the end they would have eternal life. some, mind, will have it easier than others. take St John, for instance, who didn't have to suffer a painful death like his fellow apostles.

It is this promise of eternal life that gives to Christians a perspective that other people lack: the perspective of Hope. We may have much to suffer, like Job, but we rejoice and r glad, like Sts Paul and Peter, and all the martyrs, for our names are written in Heaven.


In summary, our position with God should never be measured by our wealth or lack of it, or our health or lack of it. All these things, depending on our own qualities, can actually serve to draw us closer to God or away from him e.g., Wealth is good for the spiritual health of some, but bad for others. the same applies to suffering, which can draw us to God, or in other cases, away from him.

No matter, then our circumstances, Christians are to give glory to God and be ever ready to make known to others the source of the hope in their hearts.

The martyrs went to their deaths joyfully. That was what converted many onlookers.

Bill, I agree that we agree, except maybe on semantics. The only thing (I think) I am arguing "against" is the wording "makes life better." I understand what you mean by this, and I have argued elsewhere that words aren't magic and that people get saved after hearing and saying all kinds of words that aren't exactly biblical (like asking Jesus into their heart, etc.), so I'm not in favor of being legalistic about semantics, but I am saying I don't think "Jesus makes life better" is as helpful or as accurate as saying "Jesus makes dead people live."

And that was a loooong sentence, so I'll shut up now. :-)

Yeah, to continue what you're saying, Dad, what was going through my mind as I read the post and the comments is that for me it can't even really be described just in terms of "good" and "better", etc. All I can think of is John 10:10 - He came that we may have life ABUNDANT! Before Jesus, we were "living" (but spiritually dead)... but now, no matter how our lives look to the world (because the world has a skewed view of what "life" really is), we are REALLY living. We are walking the path of LIFE. And that IS "better". To answer the question "Does Jesus make life better", all I could think to answer is that Jesus makes life. What we in our flesh think living life is definitely looks different than what living life in the Spirit is, but after we taste and see, there's no turning back because it is true life. It's almost as if it doesn't matter whether it's "better" by orthodox standards. Like Peter said to Jesus when asked if they were going to walk away: "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God." (John 6:68-69).

Good discussion! :)

I still squirm at the word "better." It's just so loaded with the potential for misunderstanding. We also have to remember how unique our western material comfort and relative religious freedom is.

Does accepting Jesus make life better for a Chinese whose local ruling official is a hard-line atheist who actively persecutes Christians and the underground church? By the most important definitions (life now has meaning and purpose, I am a new creation, I am now alive whereas I was dead) you could say yes, that person's life is now better. But in other ways it just got a lot worse or at least more difficult and suffering-filled, and is likely to remain so for the rest of her life. It's still far preferable to have Jesus, even in that context. One has found the Pearl of Great Price and is willing to sell all to possess it, and counts what is given up as naught.

But if the cautious Chinese person asked the evangelist "will my life be better if I accept this Jesus?" then, while the answer may not be "No" I don't think it's an unqualified, unexplained "yes" either.

I'd say:

"In some ways, YES! In other ways, there are no guarantees one way or the other."

When you begin to free yourself from sin, life will get better. There are consequences for some sins that you won't have to worry about anymore. You will have the encouragement and help of the Christian community.

And Jesus has said that he wouldn't leave you or forsake you.

I think on some level that living our lives according to Biblical principles, does make our lives better. I think Christians may be reluctant to say that for fear of sounding like Osteen.

But what else are the proverbs for? Does not making wise choices make life "better" for the most part?

And what about what the NT teaches about relationships? If we love our spouses like the NT teaches are not our marriages better? If we deal with hurt like Jesus says in Matthew 18 will our relationships not be better?

We don't need to toss the baby out with the bathwater. If we avoid debt, and work hard as the Proverbs teach, will not life be better? (generally.)

If we are free from the entanglement and slavery to sin in all its forms, (sanctificiation) does not life get better?

Hi Bill and Jared,
This is a great discussion. Thought I'd weigh in with some thoughts on this topic of "Is sanctification going out of style?"

For me, I have to constantly remember what the promise of sanctification is - being conformed progressively more and more to Jesus Christ himself by the power of the Holy Spirit.

On the one hand, Jesus lived the perfect life; therefore, the desires of my flesh should thus be mortified more and more by the power of the Holy Spirit. The longer I'm a Christian, I am made even more aware of how far short I fall of the glory of God's holiness.
As someone else said, it can actually feel like I'm not particularly "getting better" on the sin front. Yet I definitly am a new creation - dead bones brought to new life -- who is no longer a slave to life-dominating sin (drunkeness, sexual immorality, fits of anger, etc.) Praise God for what He has worked in me so far! He will surely complete the work He has begun in me.


With regard to the other question, "does Jesus make life better? " I would have to again begin by deferring to our sanctification as being conformed to Christ to see what that means for our present/circumstantial benefits.
God's grace is sufficient in all of my circumstances; whether I find myself in great want or abundance circumstantially, I shall be content with Him, and in His Providence.

We all suffer and prosper in various seasons of life and in various degrees. He will not give us more than we can bear. He will give us the grace we need to persevere in both trouble and blessing.

As we are conformed to our Lord and Savior, it is possible that we may find thousands who wish to follow us in a triumphal procession, as God grants us great times of promotion and prosperity. Or, in a different season, we may find ourselves a midst thousands of enemies calling for our downfall, ready to sell us down he river, betray us, commit false witness against or any other manner of hateful action, for no other reason than they hate salt and light, because we perhaps are too much like Jesus Christ and it pricks their concience.

As a general principal, being a Christian, living in obedience to Christ, ought to make us better students/scholars, better employees, better citizens, better neighbors, and better family members. But only if "Better" is defined according to God's law and not according to cultural norms or society's rules. There is no guarantee as far as I can tell, that our life will be better.

John 12:25 "He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it to life eternal."

I can also think of a lot more based on Phillipians Chapter 2, the humility and exaltation of Christ, but I've rambled long enough -- :)) Thanks!!!

In one sense I'd agree with you Bob. But if someone says they have a lot of problems and asks whether accepting Jesus will make their life better, an honest answer has to in some fashion take into account that with Jesus, their better life might look something like this:

“I have worked much harder, been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again. Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my own countrymen, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false brothers. I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked.”

I still agree that it's better to have Jesus and all of that (or Jesus and ANY kind of bad circumstances) than to not have Jesus, regardless of your other circumstances. But "will Jesus make my life better" usually has different connotations than just "taking all things into account is it preferable to belong to Jesus than to not belong to Jesus?"

All - great conversation!

Shrode nailed it in comment #25 - I've read recently (I don't know where) that we need to "repent" of the assertion that following the Bible "works".

I don't get that, at all. I think that is also an over-reaction to the idea that following the Bible will give you all the stuff you want.

But the Bible is full of wisdom (and commands too) - how could that not be better than just doing what's right in my own eyes?

But there's a message out there that says "The Bible doesn't work". And that's coming from Christians.

I don't understand . . .

I think I mostly agree with the assertions you make along the way, Bill and Shrode. But I think we need to be careful telling those among us who are walking in the shoes of Job, that "the Bible works." It's pretty easy for the struggler to hear in those words a message that their difficulties and struggles are their own fault, or evidence of a lack of faith.

There's been some talk in this thread about the Bible's wisdom literature and good advice, and how following it will usually lead to better results than not following it. I agree, generally. But then again, the sun rises and the rain falls on the just and unjust alike. Having a good protestant work ethic and applying the wisdom of Proverbs may enhance one's chances of a materially better life, uncomplicated by some common sinful pitfalls, but it's no guarantee.

As C.S. Lewis pointed out:

"It is quite true that, if we took Christ’s advice, we should soon be living in a happier world. You need not even go as far as Christ. If we did all that...Confucius told us, we should get on a great deal better than we do. And so what?... If Christianity only means one more bit of good advice, then Christianity is of no importance. There has been no lack of good advice for the last four thousand years. A bit more makes no difference.

"But as soon as you look at any real Christian writings, you find that they are talking about something quite different from this popular religion. They say that Christ is the Son of God (whatever that means). They say that those who give Him their confidence can also become Sons of God (whatever that means). They say that His death saved us from our sins (whatever that means). There is no good complaining that these statements are difficult. Christianity claims to be telling us about another world, about something behind the world we can touch and hear and see." (Mere Christianity)

I think Lewis is describing something a lot bigger than "Jesus will make your life better" or "following the Bible works." Works, yes. But to what end? We run into the same difficulties with what we mean by "it works" as we run into with the word "better." We may not need to repent of that language, but as Lewis says elsewhere "I'd leave it alone."

Shrode, as long as you guys remember that at any given time there are those around you who can only say with Job "though He slay me, yet will I trust Him" and are barely hanging on.

To those called to walk that difficult path, either for a season or for the rest of their life, it's not just the Osteens of the church world whose words are hurtful. Job's "comforters" are alive and well today and quick to tell sufferers that they need to remember how much better off they are because they have Jesus, or to offer helpful suggestions of Biblical prinicples to apply to the situation because "the Bible works" so if you're still suffering after all this time and don't have a cheerful smile on your face and an ever-present attitude of "But JESUS makes it all worthwhile" you must be doing something wrong. This isn't my personal story, but I am close to people who have walked that road and for them, church can be a lonely and defeating place to be. Not just Osteen's church, but most churches.

I know that's not where you and Bill are coming from with your comments. But I'm sensitized to how someone in the midst of Job-like struggle might receive admonitions to remember that "the Bible works" and "Jesus makes life better" or attempts to cheer them up by pointing out that as much as they are hurting, at least they have Jesus by their side and it would suck even more if they didn't. That's all true. But if they aren't at a place where they are saying those things themselves, reminding them of it (or reminding others of it within their hearing) will only make them feel worse and condemned.

You're right about CSL I'm sure. But if you'd told him the Bible works and Jesus makes life better while he was in the midst of writing A Grief Observed, he might have thrown his beer in your face. We agree, I think. Just coming from different points of emphasis and concern.

Thanks all.

I need to re-emphasize something. The reason I wrote this post was not because I think it's a good idea to merrily run around telling hurting people that everything's good now that Jesus is their homeboy :-). I understand, I assure you, that we are not to be Job's "comforters". I also know that many of the promises in the Bible are of a general nature, and just because it says "honor your father and mother, that it may go well with you and you may live long in the land" doesn't mean that anyone who dies young didn't honor mom and dad.

But the post was a reaction to the over-correction, over-reaction, and (I believe) falsehood that would state "Jesus doesn't make life better, he makes it worse" without unpacking what that means, or "the Bible doesn't work", which I believe is a lie, or "The life of a Christian is not a victorious life" in clear contradiction to what Paul teaches us in Romans 8 (right after describing the martyrdom of Christians), and what Jesus teaches us in John 16 (right after describing the persecutions his followers would endure).

I don't think that answering an error with another error in the other direction is ever good. Jared (are you our Jared? I can never tell) - I would take issue with this statement:

"But "better," in Christian terms, never means easy and it frequently means death."

Jesus himself called people to himself with a promise of an "easy" yoke. Freedom is easier than slavery. I understand what you're saying, and I don't disagree that "better" doesn't necessarily mean "easy", but I don't think it "never means easy". This is what I'm on about, I guess.

That being said, I'm in agreement with the concerns expressed here and I think (well, I'd love to think) that fundamentally we all agree.

As a way to connect with what I think you mean, Bill, let me at least offer that I'm not saying Christianity should be presented as sturm and drang. Anyone who hears me preach will notice I'm reveling in the goodness of God and his Word. The gospel is wonderful and Jesus Christ is delicious. The sweetness of his life when finally tasted makes all else take on the bitterness it always had but we never noticed.

Yet I personally would not use the phrase "Christianity makes life better," or at least if I did, I would qualify it to death.

Do you feel that they are being dishonest, or misrepresenting what the Gospel is all about?

No. Because the gospel changes lives. :-)

Hi. I know you sort of closed this one out already, but I just came across a message by Matt Chandler on Hebrews 11:29 - 12:3 that complements this discussion, if you're interested. His intro runs a bit long, but then he starts on the text at 14:15.
http://www.alexchediak.com/blog/