We have a book called, His Needs, Her Needs, which approaches marriage advice from a post-affair POV. That is, the counselor who wrote the book has seen many people during or after adultery. He has a story in every chapter (one is not an affair), and even though I can identify where bad decisions and dangerous moves take place, each of them seems understandable. Each step away from their spouses was small and easy. That's how good people do horrible things, by stepping slowly and naturally toward an unforseen disaster. Whatever the unthinkable is won't happen to them until--oh my gosh! It happened to me! How could I do that? What was I thinking?

Raindream,

We've discussed HNHN here a bit. Jill and I took it and found it, overall, helpful. Jared also likes it.

I did have a few issues with it - one of which was how things like affairs were expressed. For instance, describing people who have had affairs saying it happened to me!. I had problems with that in the books because I don't like passive voice when talking about stuff like that. but I think that is just a personal peeve.

On a humorous note, one of our couple-friends also took the class. Each week we were to read a chapter - at times it almost seemed like the chapter-examples really made the fall into adultery appear somewhat understandable and even fun! Our friend Misty (the wife in the aforementioned couple - and she's hilarious!) walked up to us after the first few weeks and said "Woohoo! Makes you want to have an affair!" She was kidding, of course.

But I digress - this is a sad thing. God hates divorce. Jared, your "Joyless Women" post was right on

(and please don't jump on me for dogging HNHN - I'm only doing a chijuaha-level dogging of it here)

Then can we dog WAH?

By all means! But if you're going to dog WAH, please do it here.

Argghh!!! No HNHN bashing!!!


Just kidding.
We enjoyed the book and found it helpful. I think it's a great book and anyone who abuses the principles in it must be an idiot to miss Harley's point(s).

I'm not a big fan of the "it happened to me" thing either. IMHO, Christians already speak of sin as some accidental thing they just "fall into" without acknowledging that sin is a conscious decision. Men do the same thing with lust, I think, blaming everyone but themselves and acting as if they just "oh my gosh" find themselves stuck in the middle of lust like they didn't have a choice in the matter.
Just a pet peeve . . .

I understand your "it happened to me" comments and what you said about the examples making adultery understandable, even fun. That's one of the benefits of them. Because of them, I've thought about planning a novel on a Christian main character who has an affair of the heart, if not worse. The wrestling with faith, the real temptations, the seduction of worldly common sense, and desires to be happy or thrilled--they make for a great novel. Anna Karenina is something like that.

Hi there.... I stumbled across your blog and took interest in your comments on joyless women. IMNSHO, this is church's *biggest* open secret (sorry of your cliché-o-meter went of the scale *wink*). We don't acknowledge it because 1) we don't want to acknowledge the failure of evangelical feminism, nor acknowledge just how far it's gone in the body 2) we don't want to challenge reigning female emotionalism (e.g., bumper sticker: "If mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy), 3) speaking against bitterness brings pastor/teacher dangerously close to assaulting the proverbial sacred cow of modern evangelicalism: self-esteem. Commandant 11: Thou Shalt Not Do Anything to Ever Possibly Make Anyone Ever Feel Even Remotely Negative. Not to harp on the women, but hey, I've just wrapped up some time in the local singles ministry and let me tell ya -- the joylessness and volatility of today's women far exceeds what I see in the men. By far. The men seem to have gotten on with their lives, whereas the women still haven't stopped blaming the world for their discontent. And don't even get me started on today's young tarts and their gutless male counterparts who can hardly lead themselves to get a job let alone lead a family.

More boldly, I want to address the whole adultery business. As one who *has* committed adultery, let me confirm that it does not sneak up on anyone. All who fall to it were aware of the cracks in their marital and spiritual foundation, or were outright looking for a little action on the site. Period. I was the form, Clinton would an example of the latter. All that said, I believe people make statements like "I happened to me" because (primarily) they were too arrogant and prideful in their pre-adultery life to ever think that they could fall to "such wickedness." This is the result of our modern false piety in the evangelical church, as we gorge ourselves on self-esteem and pop-psychology of self-reliance -- all sprinkled with enough passages from "The Message" to make is smell and taste vaguely Christian. Not until a man -- such as myself -- falls to the depths to which mankind can fall does a man come to absolute terms with the value and price of the two-sided coin of our his dependence upon God and our depravity. "Amazing Grace how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me" can only be sung by those who understand the wretchedness as well as the grace that saves. Frankly, those of us who have made the selfish choices that lead to adultery deserve to have fallen. Sorry, folks, but I can personally speak to that truth. You sow adultery in your heart, you reap it in life. No arguing with God's economics here.

Blessings,
Phil

PS: I only withheld my email because I didn't want it posted unprotected on the web. You can reach me at phil at eloquorium dot com

Phil, thanks for sharing that. Great insights.

(Except the part about men not getting a job being gutless. :wink: I'm stay-at-home dad.)

But you do give food for thought. I do honestly think more Christian women are bitter and joyless than men. But I suppose one could argue that perhaps men share some (if not most) of that responsibility. Dunno.

Phil - well said!

And, amazingly timely. Our church is currently dealing with the problem of adultery in the leadership. I don't have the heart to blog or post much on it (it just came out last night), but your strong message had me nodding my head in agreement.

Also - I have spent enough time on this blog criticizing works like Wild At Heart, because, from my pov, it at times falls into the category of modern false piety in the evangelical church, as we gorge ourselves on self-esteem and pop-psychology of self-reliance -- all sprinkled with enough passages from "The Message" to make is smell and taste vaguely Christian.

(not that I'm here to dog The Message - I'm not)

All that being said - this line was right on:

And don't even get me started on today's young tarts and their gutless male counterparts who can hardly lead themselves to get a job let alone lead a family.

it reminded me that more men in our churches need to be a little more Wild at Heart - not like William Wallace so much but definitely like Jesus.

When we aren't, disaster ensues.

Ditto Phil.

Much resonance there with me.

But, you have to understand--we CAN'T let anybody think we're not "fine, fine!" Why, if we do, then...well, um, then...well, well you know what they would think of us!!! They'd think we weren't "perfect"! That we're wretches! Can't have that, now can we? The idea getting around that we in the church aren't "perfect". *


* just in case the irony/sarcasm in the above wasn't patently obvious, let me make it so now.