When I heard his new album was going to be edgy or whatever, I kind of braced myself for something stupid like this. I don't care that he's calling out the church or that he cussed, but I feel like I've heard all the criticism there is to hear from that sector of the church. And the fact that Webb made his "principled" stand on a single word made me roll my eyes. Swearing doesn't make you a martyr.

I'm torn, because I really love Webb as a songwriter. I loved him with Caedmon's, and I love some of his solo stuff, but I guess I'm getting tired of being told I don't care.

A few quick things:
1. I would go so far to suggest that, in general, most art/music/literature is derivative, at least to a certain extent.
2. Just because something has been said before doesn't mean that it isn't true and/or shouldn't be repeated, especially with a groovy electronica beat.
3. In one of the emails/messages that Derek sent he made it clear that the controversy was not about that one, single word.

brandon,

thanks. I agree that most music is derivative and perhaps that was a poor choice of words. I guess, in this case, I feel like it's really, really derivative. :-) This may be peculiar to people who are in my stage of life (40s) who are old enough to remember being told by Campolo that we don't care about dying people and only care about people who cuss.

Do we not care about dying people? Depends on the person, depends on the church. But Derek also engaged in the passive-aggressive "we", as in "we don't give a ship". Which blunts the force of just saying "you", which is what he meant, since he obviously does care.

As an aside, way back when I saw another example of the passive aggressive "we" used when "you" would have worked so much better. It was a Steve Camp cover of the great Keith Green song "asleep in the light" - there's that famous lyric:

How can you be so dead, when you've been so well fed
Jesus rose from the grave, and YOU - you can't even get out of bed!

Camp milqtoasted it up by replacing all the "you"s with "we"s.

For some reason, hearing camp sing "we can't even get out of bed" just made the whole thing fall apart. When Green sang it, it really was convicting and one felt like he had skin in the game, because he was calling us out. Now that was being a "Jeremiah" for our time.

I realize I'm nitpicking at this point. But the passive-aggressive "we" is one of my all time pet peeves. I realize lots of people don't find it as irritating as I do :-)

The controversy, of course, isn't about that one word. My post isn't necessarily either, really. My post was more about a bit of disappointment at what at least appears to be an uncreative attempt on Webb's part to make an impact. On the other hand, Webb has more creativity in his little finger than I do in my entire body, so who am I to judge?

One final note: the song deals with the church's treatment of gays, which is an important topic of discussion. Which brings me to a final, and I think fair, critique of the artwork. The line about 50,000 people dying and we don't give a ship is confusing, because that usually refers to people starving in Africa. Is it a reference to something else having to do with homosexuality? Or was it just thrown in there randomly as another dig?

The line about 50,000 people dying and we don't give a ship is confusing, because that usually refers to people starving in Africa. Is it a reference to something else having to do with homosexuality? Or was it just thrown in there randomly as another dig?

AIDS?

I remember when the "Derek Swears!" thing came out a few months ago, and instantly some of the forums and blogs came out with the Tony Campolo quote defending him. Then I found out that all he was doing was copying Campolo. I'm a little younger than Webb, but I've been hearing it all my life and found it to be a worn-out cliche a good decade ago.

I love Webb and Campolo (and look forward to hearing Webb in concert should he come out way again), but the line has always irked me. It's a trump card that has endless uses, but it never seems to occur to people when they throw it down.

- Why would someone argue over with the label over profanity when there's 50,000 people dying daily?

- Why would you spend money on a CD when there's 50,000 dying daily?

- Why would you start a blog where the most popular topic is about Gatorade when....

You can play this game forever.

I was hoping he'd find some sort of way to use the word to bring home a point, not just throw it in as a random attack. That's too bad, because the song was devastating up to that point. Then it became cliched.

Funny you thought of that Keith Green song too. I thought of that line as well. When I heard the "we" in both Camp's version and Webb's song I kind of thought "Speak for yourself." Funny that just the other week I heard Campolo praising Evangelicals for their ministries to dig wells and fight AIDS (thanks to Bush) in Africa. I doubt that quote will be floating around as much in 20 years.

Still, "Spirit vs. Kick Drum" is awesome.

Since Keith Green came up, and I was thinking about that "get out of bed" before I even read it in Bill's comment, I'm sure K.G. meant well, and I'm sure he's in heaven now, but I want to go on record as being the only evangelical in the whole world, apparently, who didn't appreciate him at all and found him mainly just irritating. I was already feeling like a hang nail in the body of Christ. Keith didn't inspire me to do better. He just made it harder for me. I bet I'm not alone.

By itself Webb’s use of colorful language here doesn’t necessarily bother me ... unless he’s attempting to pull a Campolo.

The funny thing about Campolo’s “you are more upset about ...” line is that most people really weren’t. A lot of people who really care about world suffering thought, “wow, Tony Campolo is a bit of a jack-ass”, and they went on with things. I think there’s an argument to justify swearing, but Campolo hadn’t made it. He’s too unsophisticated. He may as well have slept with his secretary just to get our attention. “Most of you are more upset that I just cheated on my wife than ...” Yeah. Doesn’t work.

Campolo’s stunt reminded me of Bob Geldof’s I-care-so-much-about-poverty-that-I’m-willing-to-swear-on-national-tv stunt. It does very little, and winds up being indicative of something far different from what he means it to be, for to be a resounding criticism of those who “don’t really care” then he must obviously care a lot. So what evidence do we have of this? Well, they (he and Campolo) are very far to the political left when it comes to ideas about what truly helps the poor, ideas that tend to be very passionate, very secular, and about which there’s ample evidence that they don’t actually work and indeed might even make the problem worse.

Ironically, Campolo and Geldof are products of an individualistic culture whose grandest swear-inducing plans about helping neighbor involve throwing money at developing cultures in other countries on other continents with corrupt governments. Western aid makes those governments richer, and the people living under those governments more dependent.

This isn’t to say that there haven’t been individual examples of ways in which western-style aid has helped, or that there’s no immediate need that can only be met with a handout. But generally speaking, western feel-good meddling in the name of aid has made things worse and destroyed cultures. Yet Campolo and Geldof are willing to swear to get people to do more of it.

I do not think this can possibly sum up Campolo and Geldof, but I do know that if I did this sort of thing with my free time I’d have fulfilled my obligation to their sensitivities and apparent claims upon my life. And that’s a problem because it says nothing about the kind of person I should be, knowing what the chief depravity of man is, and therefore knowing the deeper roots of human depravity in all forms.

If Campolo and his ilk are right about what they’re doing, then he’d be swearing at Jesus for not caring enough to perform all those miracles before he turned 30.

I think that nitpicking is a good word to describe this. You said it, not me.

The "we" thing has two ways of looking at it. On one hand, using "we" instead of "you" can be seen as passive aggressive. On the other hand, using "you" instead of "we" can sound arrogant. In short, if he had done it the other way around, then on some other blog, somewhere else in the universe, people would be nitpicking about that.

I agree with Andrew (except the last two sentences).

I got an email from Derek Webb (I don't know how I got on the email list. I am definitely not a fan) that said something about how he's hiding out because of how controversial this new cd was going to be. I didn't like Webb as an artist before that point, his message was ok but he lacks much in the actual music department. Once I read his emotional and elusive email (remember this email anyone? so stupid)about "something he can really say what" I knew he was just being excitable and started deleting his msgs before even opening them. It seems like it was all a bit of hype to get people to buy his crap.

I also like Justin's point about Why would someone argue over with the label over profanity when there's 50,000 people dying daily?

We each do what we can with whatever God gives us. God gives us opportunity to help someone and we'll do what we're able. Then, we'll be accountable to God.

Very interesting discussion. I hear you about Keith Green Bob, but I still think he was awesome.

Keith Green, Campolo, Derek Webb, et. al. are all modern day Martin Luthers in some way.......or they at least want to be.

They are obviously flawed and they're calling US out. We tend to not like that combination.

Reading the posts here, it seems that its ok to call out the body of Christ if you're the first one to do it and you're not being derivative.

Some of us are prophets. It's in the "gift description" of a prophet to call people out. It's also a foregone conclusion that prophets are going to be considered controversial, blow-hard, over-the-top, derivative.......you name it.

That's why most of us would prefer to tap into our "encouragement" gifts. Being a prophet is no fun unless you've got the skin thickness of a rhino.

Keith Green said "The only difference between the sheep and the goats is what they did and didn't DO!" That's strong language.......and its Biblical.......the prophets are like the rocks - they're gonna cry out if no one else does.

It seems though, that when people without obvious "prophet gifts" decide to put on the prophet hat and call us out, we get ruffled. Maybe Derek Webb fits that description? I don't know him or his music.

I have a point, just stick with me - Last year I was a substitute teacher for a group of "gifted and talented" 7th graders. It was great fun. I was encouraged to take the lessons plans beyond what a normal classroom could handle. We talked about President Polk (if I remember right) and how things of his time correspond to things in our time. One of the questions was could Texas secede from the nation and would you want us to and why? (I live in Texas) We started an open-class discussion where we talked about presidency then and now. One student said the president would have to bomb another country for no reason before we'd secede. So I asked if that had happened recently and eventually the students came to the conclusion that unless it affected them directly and changed their own course of life in a very direct way then they wouldn't care. And that's my point. (btw, these students started thinking a little differently. maybe even caring). To many of us the people starving in Africa, China, and maybe down the street aren't real enough. Cussing isn't going to make them more real though. That's why I really appreciate people like Grace Akallo and also the guys of Invisible Children. These guys made their problems more real to me and they did it without indignation, self-righteousness and swearing.

"He lacks much in the actual music department."

Perhaps his musical style is not your forte. There is nothing wrong with that. But to say that "he lacks much in the actual music department" kind of makes me think that you've never actually listened to his music. Or you did so having already made up your mind that you weren't going to like it.

He may not be an incredible vocalist. He is really only a moderately talented guitarist. But, if you know his music at all, even if you don't like it, you have to admit that he has quite a bit of talent and skill in both songwriting and musical arrangement. But this discussion is about lyrical content.

Just wanted to point out, in case anyone got confused, that the Jared who commented above is not me, Thinkling Jared (whom Bill refers to in his post).

Carry on. :-)

The song in question is up on his MySpace page, if anyone is interested in hearing it. It is electronica alright - straight out of 1994.

I could swear that he uses a line in there about "you don't watch your words and don't care what comes out" or something like that. Sadly ironic.

The song is called What Matters More? The correct, Biblical answer would be: it all matters the same. We are supposed to both care about starving people AND keeping fellow Christians accountable. These kind of arguments are just sad, because if you try to address them, the person making them can just shake their head and proclaim "you just don't get it dude."

I am a little tired of the "all music is derivative" crutch for defending bad music. This song is just poorly written. You could replace all the words with "la la la" and I would still feel that way.

Contrast this song with Bono's use of the same word in "Cedars of Lebanon." Much more powerful.

But I also have to confess that I have never been a fan of Webb's or Caedmon's. I didn't grow up in the church, so I can't identify with all the "this is how church messed me up" over and over again. Maybe I have just picked a bunch of really good churches since becoming a Christian - but every time I listen a song by Webb/CC I just want to pat them on the back and say "sorry you went to a bad church with weak theology. Now pick a better one and move on."

But, if you know his music at all, even if you don't like it, you have to admit that he has quite a bit of talent and skill in both songwriting and musical arrangement.

I do know his music, and would have to disagree. That's all subjective anyways - what one person thinks is talent, another thinks is trash. Just look at the divided opinions on heavy metal.

I do have some training in music theory, and I write music reviews for some online outlets occasionally. A lot of stuff I like, other people think is horrible. That is just the way it goes. I think if I took any song by Webb, and had a talented singer and guitarist record them, then the poor songwriting and arrangements of the songs would be exposed.

Matt, I was sort of thinking the same thing.

Two songs that came to mind that directly deal with how the church cares about the dying/hungry and homosexuality are U2's "Crumbs from Our Table" (I think that's what it's called) and Andrew Peterson's "Come, Lord Jesus." Both tackle the subjects in different ways, both are piercingly prophetic, but the difference between these songs and Webb's song is that these songs are artful and gospel-laden, even in their conviction.

Webb's is just nagging.

What's interesting to me (since I'm the one fixated on "you" and "we") is that Webb uses "you" all throughout the song until the part about not caring about 50,000 people dying. So maybe he said "we" because he doesn't feel he has the right to exclude himself from the condemnation on that score. . . who knows.

I still like Derek Webb, in case anyone's wondering or cares - I thought this post might attract more defense of him than it did. But good thoughts all.

Matt - you wrote "I didn't grow up in the church, so I can't identify with all the "this is how church messed me up" over and over again."

Thanks. You just said something I've felt for a long time.

Maybe I have just picked a bunch of really good churches since becoming a Christian - but every time I listen a song by Webb/CC I just want to pat them on the back and say "sorry you went to a bad church with weak theology. Now pick a better one and move on."


I won't defend Webb on that point (though I would mention that he crafted what is, in my opinion, the best album ever written about the Church), but I never caught any of that in Caedmons, at least not in their first few albums, and definitely not in their worship stuff. Their first two albums are both incredibly redemptive and overall, very positive. I don't want to turn this into a "Caedmon's sucks-No they don't" argument, because I really don't care who likes them or not, but I don't think Caedmon's and Webb are on the same plane here. (In fact, one of the reasons Webb left Caedmon's was because he wanted to be more outspoken than the rest of the band was willing to be about the problems he perceived in the Church.)

I don't mean to sound defensive, but growing up, many of those Caedmon's songs really encouraged me to keep going in my faith. Songs like "Lead of Love," "Thy Mercy," "Not the Land," and "Thankful" all really spoke to the part of me that loved Jesus, and not the part of me that wanted to rail against .

Again, whether a person likes or doesn't like Caedmon's means nothing to me. I just thought lumping them in with Webb in this context was unfair.

Arguing about the subjective merits of music is fairly pointless anyway, but is there any need to go after the guy's ability as a musician? Whether he's a good songwriter or a poor one, it doesn't change the message of the song. Maybe I'm only trying to guard my own sensibilities, since Webb was a guy I looked up to a lot growing up, and remains one of my favorite contemporary songwriters, but I think the relative merits of his songwriting skillz are beside the point.

I don't know this Webb guys' stuff... but I found a really interesting article online today with Lenny Kravitz, who apparently is born-again.

For anyone interested:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/rockandpopfeatures/5549844/Lenny-Kravitz-interview.html

I like "What Matters More" musically, but I'm a strange kid when it comes to that at times. Honestly, though, I miss the old days when Derek wrote about the Gospel and faith and repentance instead of trying to be Mr. Social Justice. Social justice is obviously very important, but it is the fruit of a heart in which God has been taking out stones and thorns. I don't hear that as much in Derek's lyrics as I used to, even from back in the Caedmon's days. Oh well. I still respect the guy a lot, and I'm still a fan, and yeah, I'll be going off to the tour this fall. :)

Speaking on purely secular terms (which, I know, is not possible--don't freak out on me for a false dichotomy...I have a point), I think that Webb has pretty much killed himself as a successful musician by peaking too early. She Must and Shall Go Free was just too good. I think all of us that loved that CD and keep expecting another CD like it or better are expecting too much. Unfortunately.

Needless to say, I was rather disappointed in the new CD, especially in light of the "controversy" and hype. It really wasn't that big of a deal, and definitely not worth all the discussion it provoked. Just another mediocre album from Webb in the line of Mockingbird and The Ringing Bell. Oh well. I guess it was worth $8 to find out.


Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go listen to I Repent and Beloved again and remember why I love Derek Webb's (old) music.

Just got back from Jared's Book-Moot . . .

I'd like to echo what Andrew said - I think there's a big difference between Caedmon and the later stuff. I've mainly just listened to the first few Caedmon CDs but there's a lot of joy in there.

The song Forty Acres comes to mind . . .

Good stuff.

I have to back step and remember that my view of Caedmon's Call is based also on a couple of concerts of theirs that I want to in the early 90's. All of the talk between songs was along the lines of "people think this song is about ____. What is really about is how you were taught wrong in the church growing up." I don't know the names or faces of any of the members of Caedom's Call - so it could have been Derek Webb doing all of that talking for all I know.

All we have of their albums is the self-titled Warner Alliance album (my wife had it when we got married). Looking through the songs, the ones that I can't connect with are the ones that seems to be veiled pot shots at the church like "Standing Up For Nothing" or "Stupid Kid." Which I see were written by Webb. I see a pattern here.

"Standing Up For Nothing" seemed to be more of an introspective look at fear and doubt than a "pot shot at the church." I guess the part that says, "This complacency denotes this approval denies the Truth," could be taken that way, but I think in the context of the song it speaks more of trying to make sense of all the confusion involved with trying to live a life of faith in a fallen world. Even if it is about the church sucking, there's a lot of inner struggle in there that doesn't seem to be on par with the whole, "we don't give a ship" thing.

Then again, I've never heard him explain what that song actually means, so I guess it could be a vindictive judgement call. If it is, that song loses most of its meaning for me... :-(

For what it's worth, I've never talked to anyone who actually likes "Stupid Kid." :-)

Hey Matt

I too am curious about the veiled shots at the church you see in those two songs - especially the song Stupid Kid, which seems more a shot at apathetic, adolescent 20-somethings and a challenge to families to not judge their kids based on accomplishments, but to love them unconditionally. I'm not saying you don't have a point, but the Caedmon's I'm familiar with (mainly the first two nationally released CDs) seemed to be relatively positive. I'm fairly sensitive to shots at the church and I don't recall thinking that they were one of "those" bands.

Maybe their newer stuff. I don't know.

For what it's worth, the main guy in the band besides DW is Cliff Young, who's the son of pastor Ed Young (and brother to Ed Young Jr.) - not sure if that would make him more or less a supporter of the church :-)

How about a "not so veiled" shot at the church.

"I Want to Be a Clone"
Steve Taylor

I'd gone through so much other stuff
that walking down the aisle was tough
but now I know it's not enough
I want to be a clone

I asked the Lord into my heart
they said that was the way to start
but now you've got to play the part
I want to be a clone

chorus:
Be a clone and kiss conviction goodnight
cloneliness is next to Godliness, right?
I'm grateful that they show the way
'cause I could never know the way
to serve him on my own
I want to be a clone

They told me that I'd fall away
unless I followed what they say
who needs the Bible anyway?
I want to be a clone

Their language it was new to me
but Christianese got through to me
now I can speak it fluently
I want to be a clone

(chorus)

Send in the clones
Ah, I kind of wanted to tell my friends and people about it, you know
What?
You're still a babe
you have to grow
give it twenty years or so
'cause if you want to be one of his
got to act like one of us

(chorus)

So now I see the whole design
my church is an assmebly line
the parts are there
I'm feeling fine
I want to be a clone

I've learned enough to stay afloat
but not so much I rock the boat
I'm glad they shoved it down my throat
I want to be a clone

Everybody must get cloned

Well, I have to first say that I don't have a rock solid case on these things. It's just how it seems to me. And I am frequently wrong on many things daily.

Also, as I am sure everyone else believes, I also feel that songs can have many different interpretations - most of which will be influenced by the person interpreting. My interpretations of the songs are very likely influenced by those early concerts. I think we all agree on that - just had to let you know that I was in agreement.

Also - just because someone griped about the church doesn't mean they also can't have joy. People are pretty complex.

For the song "Stupid Kid":

I can turn off all the lights
Ignore the knocking on the door

Could speak of how the church turns off it's "Light" and ignores the hurting people knocking at the door.

And I don't want to go outside
And mow the grass today

Could speak of how the Church doesn't want to go outside and harvest the fields.

Webb does use "I" in these songs, which could be seen as just introspection. But it is also a common literary device to use introspection as a pot shot at the failings in others. The whole song "Stupid Kid" could just be about how the Church wants to see how lazy it can become and still ask Daddy if he will love them. Or not.

In "Standing Up For Nothing":

And everyday when I get up
I see folks trading in their crowns
For all the paper of plastic lives
An opiate for the masses' hounds
And pride like a vestige of lives lost
The stench of the old folks coming around
Now with the news I heard today
I can't tell if this world is lost or found

Seems pretty obvious how that is a shot. Trading in crowns for plastic lives? Only Christian have crowns - so they are trading it in for fake lives. Opiate for the masses hounds? Stench of old folks coming round?

'Cause I know who you say you are
But these crows can't be made to stop
So I'll sit denying by this fire
I ain't standing up for nothing

This sounds to me like he knows God is true, but since everyone around him in church won't do anything, he won't either. Once again, it could just be pure self-introspection, or it could be introspection used to poke at others.

Ha! Since I'm the upstart here it's my responsibility to differentiate myself from the original Jared. The Author. The 8th Wonder Jared.

"Non-Thinkling Jared" seems as good as any.

I don't know how long this can go on before we'll just have to agree to disagree, but I'll take another shot.

Seems pretty obvious how that is a shot. Trading in crowns for plastic lives? Only Christian have crowns - so they are trading it in for fake lives. Opiate for the masses hounds? Stench of old folks coming round?

The first line seems like a plain observation that no Christian would deny: that every day, people trade in Jesus for something else. I don't see it as a pot shot or even necessarily a commentary on the Church. It's just an observation, and one I think every Christian has made at one time or another. I never really understood the line about old folks, but I assume Derek Webb has nothing against old people, even Christian old people. After all, he's Presbyterian. ;-)

This sounds to me like he knows God is true, but since everyone around him in church won't do anything, he won't either. Once again, it could just be pure self-introspection, or it could be introspection used to poke at others.

Keep in mind, I never said the song was "pure introspection," just more introspective than not (or, more introspective than "What Matters More"). In any case, I always saw this line as an allusion to Peter. Christ asked him, "Who do you say I am?" and Peter said, "You are the Christ." And Peter was also the one who denied Christ. I took that line as a clear picture of what doubt feels like. I don't know who the "crows" are, but I guess I just took it as a reference to the white noise all around, telling us a million different things.

The more I think about it, the more I see things in that song that could be taken as shots against the church, but overall, I think the context rules that out. The first verse has the lines "I can't stop staring at myself/ my face reflected in this empty plate/ I can't decide if it's the devil/ or if it's just something I ate/ because he's been down there all mornin/ he's patiently waiting at my gate/ he's throwing rocks at my window/ "hey won't you come on out and play with me." I guess "empty plate" could be an offering plate, but I always took it at face value. :-) The last verse repeats the first two lines and then says, "I know that it's the devil."

I admit I probably read certain things into that song because I first came to love that song at a time when I was having a major crisis of faith. I identified with what I saw as a personal struggle to try and come to terms with the chaos I perceived around me. I think the way Webb's early writing was more personal than prophetic (see "Not the Land," "Faith My Eyes," "Table for Two," "Somewhere North," "Thankful") strengthened that perception. In any case, I hope you're wrong about that song. ;-) There are only a few songs that spoke to me the way that one did. It'd be a shame to find out I had been misunderstanding it.

Thanks for the discussion.

The first line seems like a plain observation that no Christian would deny: that every day, people trade in Jesus for something else.

I think if maybe the "trading crowns" part had been left off, maybe. Only believers will get crowns for running the race. If they don't run the race, no crown. So, it seems to me to be an allusion to people that are no longer running the race - not just any body out there who is choosing to not follow Jesus. It is true that "every day people trade in Jesus for something else", and maybe that is what he meant. But it seems a little stronger than that to me - more like everyday, believers are not doing what will get them a crown and instead trying to lead shallow, plastic lives.

No matter what it was meant by the person who wrote it, most song writers worth their salt will be glad that different people get different things out of the music they write. You can still hold to what the song spoke to you no matter what others like me think about it, because God used it to speak to you in a time of need. God can do that with any song written out there. I remember someone sharing a story of being on a mission trip to Mexico. They had a rough trip getting there, and the border guard was giving them an unusually high amount of trouble getting over. Discouragement was running high. Then, over the radio in the van came the Tom Petty song "Won't Back Down." That filled the people in the van with faith to pray to get things moving, and they were in Mexico by the end of the song. I doubt Tom Petty had that in mind when he wrote "you can stand me up at the gates of hell, but I won't back down."