"In spiritual matters there really is no 'Third World.' It's all Third World."
- Dallas Willard
Wednesday, May 6, 2009
Some thoughts and spoilers below the fold.
But just a few.
I thought this episode was really good. Although I think the success of this season still hangs in the balance.
I'm tracking OK with all the time-travel stuff, but it is confusing. The big question is, does Whatever Happened happen? I vote yes. They are using that plot-question to divide the Losties.
Kate ran away from Jack, again.
Jack is starting to sound a lot like Locke.
I guess we were supposed to see that Dr. Chang really does love his family. Why didn't he just tell his wife why they were being evacuated?
So, did Richard really see Hurley, Jack, and Kate die?
Seeing Sun trustingly being led by Locke, the Deceiver, is hard. He needs to be left alone in a room with Radzinsky for awhile.
The CGI of the submarine leaving the island was some of the worst I've ever seen. It looked like a video game.
This island, besides being a place of healing and mystery, also has an inexhaustible supply of AlwaysLite, EverBurn torches™
Ready for a list? How's this:
People who are dead to me now
- Phil: he hit Juliet. I look forward to Sawyer keeping his promise.
- Radzinsky: for being both crazy and sadistic. He needs to be disciplined. Where's the smoke monster when you need him?
- Ben: just because.
- The writers: for still pushing the "Does Sawyer still love Kate?" storyline. Please, guys, give that a rest.
- Sawyer. But only if he chooses Kate
- Locke! It's nice to see him no longer a sniveling whiner. But he lied to Sun. Dead to me.
Leave your thoughts, observations and theories in the comments.
Trackbacks:
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Comments on "Lost: Follow The Leader":
2. Bill
- 05/06/2009 10:09 pm CDT
Well, they are evacuating everyone (including Sawyer, Juliet, and now Kate - she joined them for some massive awkwardness) - did you see that?
The final scene is Locke leading the Others to see Jacob. Ben asks if Locke is really going to see Jacob so they can find Jin.
Locke says no. He's going to KILL Jacob.
Bad Robot!
3. Quaid
- 05/06/2009 11:11 pm CDT
Jared, you also missed something that is somewhat pertinent to Bill's "Dead to me" list, I think.
[On the beach, everyone is walking in straight lines, a la Bridge on the River Kwai, and the camera pans to Lock and Ben (this is a paraphrase).]
Ben: Just so you know, John, Richard has concerns with you bringing everyone to see Jacob. I think he's wondering if you know what the h*** you're doing.
Locke: I appreciate you bringing those concerns to my attention, Ben, but I feel that this is important.
Ben: Well, I told you that I would help you, so whatever you want me to do to get you back together with your people, I'll do it.
Locke: That's not why we're going to see Jacob.
Ben: But you told Sun -
Locke: I know what I told Sun, but getting back together with our people isn't my primary purpose.
Ben: Then what is?
Locke: Well, Ben, I'm going to kill Jacob.
[Ben freezes with a look of shock while Locke continues to walk in line with the hostiles, Screen goes black and the LOST title flashes on the screen.]
This might not be exactly right, and I'm interested to see what I've forgotten and added into my memory of the final scene - I'm sure someone will correct me.
Bill-
I don't know that Locke lied to GangstaSun (who appeared far more vulnerable this ep than normal, methinks). I do think that he's intending to keep his promise to find out if and how she can reunite with Jin. He just didn't tell her the whole truth.
You're right about Phil getting whacked. Next week it's a-gonna happen and everyone knows it.
As far as "whatever happened" - I think they'll continue to follow the rule that has been established. There's no changing anything and what was intended to alter the future, will, in fact, end up being the event that made the future what it is.
Just as Sayid shot little Benry in an effort to eliminate him and that became the event that made Ben who he is, this plot to eliminate the crash of Flight 815 from time will end up being the cause of it's very existence.
Although I'm not sure exactly what will happen, whatever they do will, I think be the initiator of what pushes Radzinsky into the hatch to push the 108-minute button. The 108-minute release mechanism will be created by the action that was designated to eliminate its very existence.
This is my theory based not on anything from meta-LOST stuff, but just my brain. So, I think that whatever happened, happened and this whole rabbit trail is just created to throw everyone off. Dead is dead. And next week marks the precursor to the beginning of the end.
I can't wait.
4. brandontmilan
- 05/06/2009 11:33 pm CDT
There are references to the Swan being concreted off like Chernobyl back in season 2... that kinda makes me wonder if the "accident" at the swan had something to do not only with the natural magnetism in the area, but also some sort of nuclear reaction... like a bomb or something...
in other words, maybe this whole attempt to stop the accident from happening will actually turn out to be the cause of the accident...
on a different note, I kinda doubt that John is actually going to kill Jacob... I kinda think he's just trying to freak ben out... in fact, I think that John is not convinced that Jacob actually exists...
5. Quaid
- 05/07/2009 1:15 am CDT
" in fact, I think that John is not convinced that Jacob actually exists..."
I was kind of thinking that, as well. Still, I go back to when John and Ben visited the cabin. John (and the rest of us) all heard, "Heeeellllp Meeeeee!"
Ben seemed to genuinely want to hear and, later, know what John heard. Even as John lay dying (I just realized that Ben had attempted murder twice against John), Ben desperately wanted to know what Jacob had said.
This seems to show that Jacob is real. I think that John believes that Jacob is real. I do think it's possible, however, that whatever Jacob is, it isn't capable to lead and when John says he wants to kill Jacob, he actually intends just to kill whatever wayward influence Jacob holds - is Jacob even a physical being that can be put to death?
6. Bill
- 05/07/2009 6:53 am CDT
This seems to show that Jacob is real. I think that John believes that Jacob is real. I do think it's possible, however, that whatever Jacob is, it isn't capable to lead and when John says he wants to kill Jacob, he actually intends just to kill whatever wayward influence Jacob holds - is Jacob even a physical being that can be put to death?
Interesting theory, Quaid. I can see John wanting to have complete control, so Jacob must "die" (whatever that means).
Question: is John really John? They reiterated in the previouslies that "dead is dead. You don't get to come back from that" - I wonder if John is just the island (smokie). Hence his seeming omniscience about all things islandy.
I don't think John cares about being reunited to his people - he said as much - and that means he doesn't care if Jin and Sun are reunited. It still might happen, but only as a result of his nefarious power-grab. If he's not really lying to Sun, OK. But I think he is, and therefore, he is dead to me.
(also, I know I've berated you about the Lost meta before, but now I feel bad. I'll not be so touchy about that in the future)
A question on Richard: Good or evil? I am kind of thinking that he's neither. He's other-worldly and has a purpose deeper than all the things going on with the Losties, Dharma, etc. They are, in a way, kind of just an irritating distraction for him.
Thoughts?
7. Bill
- 05/07/2009 7:03 am CDT
We just rewatched part of it - I forgot to mention my absolute favorite line from this show:
Chang: "Who's the President of the United States"
Hurley: "Alright dude, we're from the future"
Heh.
9. jen
- 05/07/2009 8:08 am CDT
This island, besides being a place of healing and mystery, also has an inexhaustible supply of AlwaysLite, EverBurn torches™
LOL
10. Shrode
- 05/07/2009 11:21 am CDT
You know Jared you can always go back and rewatch it on ABC.com. Every single LOST episode is available there. You probably knew that, but I'm just saying it in case you didn't cuz me personally, I'd rather see it myself...
Though I must say that Quaid did an awesomely bang-up job describing it for you.
And Quaid, I think you are exactly right in everything you said about what's gonna happen.
11. Jared
- 05/07/2009 12:18 pm CDT
My hunch is that John wants to "kill Jacob" (whatever that means) so that he can be in total control or in charge of the island.
It would be sweet if this thing came back around full circle to Jack vs. Locke, their different views/philosophies/aims at war against each other again.
Locke wants to use the island, control it, power hungry. Jack, even with his flaws and stubbornness, basically just wants to get everyone back to life and "okay" before the misery of the crash on the island.
13. Evan
- 05/07/2009 12:28 pm CDT
That was an episode on action steroids. Not my favorite kind, but I did like this one, even if it largely was to move all the characters around quickly to where they apparently need to be for the finale.
I realize they have made Jack the Locke replacement and man of faith who is intent on embracing his imagined destiny, but I wish they would have had Kate or Sayid ask him what we are all thinking, 'What if detonating this bomb is actually what causes the future we already lived and know?" I agree that is the most likely outcome at this point.
But the thing that still nags at me most is the resurrected characters, first Christian Shepherd and now John Locke. Unless the island can really bring back the dead (which obviously would make Ben's 'Dead is dead' reasoning wrong), there will eventually have to be some sort of time travel or time difference explanation. So I still get the feeling that at least Locke (maybe Ben, Sun, and the 316 survivors as well) are really not in the actual present, but are at some time in the past, at least prior to the point in time when Ben killed Locke.
And yet the writers keep slapping that '30 years ago' or '30 years later' caption up there once each episode and they have definitively put the Jack and Hurley group in 1977. So if Locke isn't actually in 2007, I don't know how they would possibly write their way out of that box.
But it seems like there is going to have to be some sort of unexpected swerve to set up the final season. If that is the case, I think it will have something to do with 'when' Locke actually is or possibly 'when' he came from.
14. Michele
- 05/07/2009 2:57 pm CDT
Quaid, I thought the Others walking behind Locke on the beach was very Moses-esque, as well as Bridge on Kwai.
Was anyone else expecting Sawyer to get Juliet safely on sub, then turn around to go save his friends? I couldn't believe he was leaving his homies to die.
I thought Richard Alpbert for the first time seemed mortal--he was befuddled alot. Oddly, his acting and voice reminded me much of Ben's this ep.
Did anyone else think it was sort of comical when Sayid found out Ben had been saved?
Yes, very lame submarine. Also, it should be way more crowded! There are tons of women and children in Dharma. How big is it?
Lastly, how annoying was it that poor Juliet's loving moment is ruined by Kate, coming down and panting over nothing.
15. Crossbow
- 05/07/2009 2:59 pm CDT
Ben said "dead is dead". So what - Ben lies a lot. That could have been a lie. Or just Ben being clueless - he seems to be more clueless now that he has been gone for a while.
I don't know if I totally buy Locke trying to get absolute power. Jacob could be causing big problems with the island. Maybe the island wants him dead? Let's face it - John said that the island told him where to go to make sure all the events unfolded as they would. Maybe it wants Jacob dead.
That just sounds weird to write :)
Just because Locke told Ben that he wants Jacob dead, that doesn't mean he was telling the truth. Maybe he is doing another one of those "now you know how it feels" things. I think he is just playing Ben, to force Ben's hand.
16. Quaid
- 05/07/2009 3:41 pm CDT
Bill- Don't feel bad about the meta-Lost thing. I don't say that for any reason but to point out that I'm not ruining anything for anyone based on outside stuff.
I don't really know if John is John. I'm inclined to say he isn't - just like Christian isn't Christian - but Christian never appeared and spoke to an entire group of people, right? He was only seen by one or a few people at a time. Locke is running for Island President.
If time travel is involved, could we be seeing Locke's resurrection body? (I doubt Cuse and Lindelof know what that is)
I have some friends who think that Locke is Jacob and he's taking to some place to kill himself.
Whatever the incident is, I just want to see Jin and Sun get back together. Even if they have to die. Which leads me to my next question. When Richard said he watched all of them die, after looking at Sun's picture, what do you think he meant?
18. Bill
- 05/07/2009 4:03 pm CDT
Anyone thinking Jin and Sun might be the Adam and Eve skeletons now?
I've thought that for awhile. I've also thought it could be Des/Penny. Or even Jack/Kate. Or maybe Sawyer/Juliet (but that's less likely)
I do think the Adam and Eve are one of the current Lostie pairs. Maybe even Rose/Bernard (WHERE ARE THEY?)
I have some friends who think that Locke is Jacob and he's taking to some place to kill himself.
Very cool theory. With all the time travel and bouncing around, I suppose that's possible.
I thought Richard Alpbert for the first time seemed mortal--he was befuddled alot.
True. I also was interested in Ben's description of him as "an advisor". That seems to be Richard's role - there's always someone else leading the others - Charles Widmore, Ben Linus, John Locke. Richard doesn't hold (or seem to want) the leadership position. And he will do what the leader says (although - contra this theory, he said he didn't answer to Charles/Ellie when it came to wee Ben. But I think that's because he knew they were on their way out, and Ben was on his way in)
I like Richard. I hope when it is all said and done it turns out he's good, or at least not evil.
It will be a hoot if there's some more way back time travel - I'd like to see Richard in the ancient statue days. I think he's been on that island for a long, long, long time.
20. Bill
- 05/07/2009 4:49 pm CDT
It's Purgatory, I tells ya!
Heh. Keep dreamin' . . .
Revisiting the Sun/Jin as Adam/Eve - I just thought of a flaw in that theory. They have a baby. There's no way they would stay on the island (unless, of course, they had no choice) and never see their baby again.
Not saying it can't happen. I just really hope it won't. GangstaSun aside, the story of Sun and Jin is a wonderful story of redemption - I hope they at least find full happiness.
21. brandontmilan
- 05/07/2009 5:02 pm CDT
Didn't they find Locke's backgammon pieces in the pockets of "Adam and Eve"???
Anyway, I still kinda think that Locke is Locke and Christian is Christian and what not... just that they have some sort of new insight--Locke claimed that the island was speaking to him. Maybe Jacob is a person who has learned how to harness the power of the Island, but now the Island is telling Locke to kill him...
As far as I can remember, there is no mention of Jacob in the past, so maybe Jacob is actually one of the Dharma Initiative... like Dr. Chang or something...
22. brandontmilan
- 05/07/2009 5:03 pm CDT
I actually have a pretty good feeling that if Jacob exists at all, he will be someone that we recognize... and it will be a complete and utter surprise to all of us...
23. brandontmilan
- 05/07/2009 5:04 pm CDT
i take that back, i remember that locke mentioned jacob in 1954...
25. Bill
- 05/07/2009 5:35 pm CDT
I think he told Richard that Jacob sent him, or some such, back in the Jughead days
26. GinH
- 05/07/2009 7:46 pm CDT
Question. What with all the time travel stuff and wacky people having knowledge and showing up all over the time line, what are the odds that one of our Losties is Jacob?
I mean, John sure is confidently walking around like he understands all the mysteries of the world. Could one of our future Losties know more and is in control of all of it from the future - whether it's Jack still trying to make it all go back to normal - or Sawyer trying to control things. Last night while they were walking to the sub he told Juliette that they'd buy IBM. He's thinking about taking advantage of the time travel thing.
I don't know. Just what iffing?
27. Quaid
- 05/07/2009 10:31 pm CDT
I think that if Jacob is anyone we know, then it is Ben.
Jacob means "deceiver" right? Who is the only character on this show that we can consistently rely on to lie his way in and out of everything (or tell only partial truths)?
Benry Gale Linus
Having said this, I don't think it's Ben.
29. Bill
- 05/09/2009 7:40 am CDT
Another question: Who's Esau?
Didn't they allude to "Jacob I have loved, Esau I have hated" during the Clockwork Orange scene with Carl from season 3?
The writers have been setting up lots of duels - Widmore vs. Ben, Jack vs. Locke, etc.
30. gretchen from lifenut
- 05/09/2009 8:30 am CDT
Esau: Hurley.
He's big, he's hairy, he is a good cook. He can see the cabin, too.
33. Bill
- 05/10/2009 7:51 am CDT
Well, I don't know why Richard is involved. I can sort of see Ellie's interest - to undo the shooting her son.
35. stroke
- 05/13/2009 11:42 am CDT
just heard an interesting theory, but it doesn't jive with "heellllpppp meeee"...
what IF: locke created "jacob" when he went back in time and said "jacob sent me"
that could create the enigma of jacob that was perpetuated from the 50s on and now locke will destroy him by disproving jacob's existence.
BUT...i've also heard that the role of jacob has been cast already...
i'm going back to NOT trying to figure this show out...
36. jp
- 05/13/2009 3:31 pm CDT
i'm suprised none of you have mentioned the "Garden of Eden" theory, Lostpedia has a whole page on it.
They are "lost" and in "paradise".....reference to John Miltons epic poem, "Paradise Lost"???
there are some fascinating theories on this, which would relate to the Adam/Eve skeletons in some way I think
37. salguod
- 05/15/2009 11:45 am CDT
We just watched this ep last night.
The CGI of the submarine leaving the island was some of the worst I've ever seen. It looked like a video game.
Yeah, they should have just left that scene out.
This island, besides being a place of healing and mystery, also has an inexhaustible supply of AlwaysLite, EverBurn Torches™
Yeah, I mentioned that to my wife when I saw it.
I loved seeing Ben completely lost by what John knew and was up to. Ben's look of shock at the end was priceless.
Leave a Comment:
Our recording cut off. What happened at the very, very end?
We saw Jack, et.al. seeing the hydrogen bomb. Then the next scene was panning over the beach. Then it cut off.
What was the "D'oh!" floating LOST ending thingy?