"Membership in the family of God is neither inconsequential or something to be casually ignored. The church is God's agenda for the world. Jesus said, "I will build my church, and all the powers of hell will not conquer it." The church is indestructable and will exist for eternity. It will outlive this universe, and so will your role in it."
- Rick Warren
Wednesday, April 1, 2009
I was not able to watch this as it aired, so no live-blog this week, but I did just finish watching the episode.
Some thoughts and major spoilers below the fold . . .
I have made it no secret that I'm no Kate fan. And this was a Kate show, which made it a bit meh. But, I must say, I like the redemption that they are weaving for her.
Kate did something selfless and noble - two things really: giving Aaron back to Claire's mom, and doing what she could to save Ben.
Jack is at his lowest point ever. My guess is the writers will pull him out of this eventually, but he is currently my least favorite character. As Kate said, I liked the old Jack better.
Though very exposition-heavy (unnecessarily so), I still got a great kick out of Hurley and Miles and their time-travel conversation.
When Sawyer said "I'm doing it for her", with "her" meaning Juliet, I almost stood up and applauded. Sawyer has grown up. His redemption story is one of the best things about Lost.
I thought it was entirely implausible that Kate could sneak Ben out of the camp and drive to the perimeter without getting caught. Especially in a time like this, of heightened watchfulness in Dharmaville.
What's up with the Others? I wish I knew what their aims were.
Notice the references to Charles and Ellie. Widmore and Hawking, twenty three years older. Very cool.
Juliet's conversation with Jack was fabulous. He needed to hear that.
"Welcome to the land of the living". Bam!
In the previews for next week, Ben says he's coming back to "be judged". Do you believe him? I don't.
Pretty good episode, but it's been such an excellent season, I think this one is the worst of the bunch so far. Still good.
Update: It dawned on me this morning that, though Kate, Sawyer and Juliet are responsible for taking BoyBen to the Others, the person who started that diabolical ball rolling was Jack. By refusing to operate on Ben, Jack ensured that Ben would become the monster he became. And Kate, Sawyer and Juliet were at least acting out of concern for the boy. Jack was acting out of heartlessness, a passive-aggressive desire to "fix" things, and his new-found apathy.
His story arc needs to repent, soon.
What are your thoughts?
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Comments on "Lost: Whatever Happened, Happened (or How Jack Made Ben)":
3. Shrode
- 04/02/2009 8:27 am CDT
Yet, the reason why Sayid and Jack did such things to Ben, creating evil Ben, is because of what evil Ben had already done to them, even thought it hadn't happened in time yet. It's all very circular, a lot like the Terminator movies actually, though there's less plot in those.
But the time travel itself turns out to be the original instigator. Yep. I'm right, the time travel theory of lost is that the timeline is static and can't be changed.
I too loved the Hurley/Miles debate. That was awesome.
I've wondered too why Ben didn't register recognition of the Lostaways when they first met him, but I'm figuring that's just because he's diabolical and knew to hide it. (Plus the writers probably hadn't planned all this out yet. :)
4. Bill
- 04/02/2009 8:29 am CDT
Hey, I'm not defending Sayid. He and Jack both made the same mistake, which is trying to change the future (by making Ben die).
The right thing to do is to do what you would do if you didn't know the future, in which case Sayid wouldn't have shot Ben and, if he had, Jack would have done everything he could to save Ben.
Another somewhat unrelated thought. I remember at the end of Season Three that it seemed a bit contrived (at the time) that Ben didn't have ZekeTom and the others kill Jin, Sayid, and Bernard on the beach. Now I know why. Ben knew that they couldn't be killed (because at least two of them had to go back into the past).
I think a lot of things like that are going to start making more sense as the puzzle pieces fill in.
Plus there is the Ontological Law of Jack, which stipulates that anything Jack does is good by virtue of the fact that Jack has done it.
LOL!
For what it's worth: for all my Jack-bashing, I really do want him to be redeemed. And I do think he will be. And I think I will like and respect him at the end of all this.
But right now . . . what a loser.
But if I could warm up to Kate (which this ep made me do) I can warm up to Jack. I expect redemption, soon. He'll get back to what we loved about him in the first season: a self-sacrificing leader.
5. Bill
- 04/02/2009 8:34 am CDT
Shrode,
Yes, the static theory of time looping is now the default answer to most of the island's mysteries (except for the smoke monster, and the "will of the island" stuff, and a few other things). I think it was the right choice for them to pick that as the device.
I also wonder where all the spiritual clues will lead.
I've wondered too why Ben didn't register recognition of the Lostaways when they first met him, but I'm figuring that's just because he's diabolical and knew to hide it. (Plus the writers probably hadn't planned all this out yet. :)
Obviously he was diabolical and knew all along. Even without this season, we know he did because he had thoroughly researched all of them, knew who Jack was and that he was a spinal surgeon, etc.
I haven't had any problem with this - what we know of Ben fits perfectly with how he reacted to things back when he was Henry Gale. He's always been in complete control (for the most part) and has always had more information than anyone else (with the exception, perhaps, of Guyliner).
6. Shrode
- 04/02/2009 9:40 am CDT
"Guyliner"
I had to study that one for a few seconds to figure out who you were referring to, and then when I figured it out...
LOL! Continuously! Recurringly! In fact, I'll be laughing out loud about this one all day. I can hardly breathe...man that's funny! I'm holding my gut...
7. Bill
- 04/02/2009 9:40 am CDT
I wish I could claim credit for that moniker. I've seen that in numerous places where people are talking about Richard.
8. Shrode
- 04/02/2009 9:49 am CDT
I'm thinking about doing a post someday about the old mysteries the writers seem to have forgotten about. The numbers. What happened to the children the others kidnapped and why they kidnapped them etc...
But they've done a pretty good job of remembering old mysteries so far... I think they'll get to most everything, except the kid thing. I really believe they've forgotten that one.
9. Shrode
- 04/02/2009 10:05 am CDT
The right thing to do is to do what you would do if you didn't know the future, in which case Sayid wouldn't have shot Ben and, if he had, Jack would have done everything he could to save Ben.
Aaaah. The ethics of time-travel...(or knowing the future with certainty)
I'm not sure I agree with you here. You are probably right but there's at least some question in my mind about this.
Well, I dunno, the more I think about it, maybe you are right. I was going to say that if I could travel back in time, and the past (and therefore the future) were alterable, (dynamic time travel theory) and I saw baby Adolf Hitler, that it might be the right thing to kill him...
But you know, I'm doubting myself for that for two reasons:
1- I don't think dynamic time travel theory holds up. If time travel is ever possible, then the timeline is static, otherwise, time travel wouldn't be possible. So if I tried to kill baby hitler I'd just fail anyway.
2- If I could kill baby hitler, how do I know I'm not creating a WORSE history for humanity? It's not my job to play God, which in a way is what Sayid and Ben were trying to do. (One actively, the other passively)
But both of their behaviors are understandable...I think. That Sayid storyline last week was brilliant. Sayid sees himself still, as that little boy who kills the chicken in the beginning. He sees himself as the one who does the tough stuff that has to be done so that others don't have to. He's a soldier.
10. Bill
- 04/02/2009 10:22 am CDT
But they've done a pretty good job of remembering old mysteries so far... I think they'll get to most everything, except the kid thing. I really believe they've forgotten that one.
I don't think so. I think there are enough tie-ins with the fact that the Others can't have children, and with the fact that they stole Alex when she was a baby. Maybe this will be tied in to the incident.
On Sayid/Jack. At least Sayid cried after shooting Ben. Jack was just a cold-hearted jerk about not saving him.
On the ethics of time travel - do ends justify means? You are saying (well, at least initially) you would murder a defenseless baby "for the greater good". Would you be able to do that?
I'm with Kate, Sawyer and Juliet on this one. It's wrong.
11. Brian
- 04/02/2009 10:26 am CDT
Thought it was interesting that RA said "I don't answer to them" - referring to Charles and Ellie.
I'm also interested in the 3 years Sawyer and the rest spent on the island before Jack & Co. showed up. How did they get to the point they are at now? Surely the had conversations about what to do about Ben and the purge they know is coming. And Miles just following whatever order Sawyer barks out? I thought he'd lost his personality altogether until that little time-travel conversation with Hurley.
12. stroke
- 04/02/2009 10:37 am CDT
did i imagine this or did alpert say, "he won't have any recollection of this."? speaking about ben.
he said he won't have any innocence, but i'm pretty sure he said he wouldn't recall anything. isn't that the answer to why ben doesn't recognize the losties in the future?
you all keep asking that question, but i thought king tuten-alpert tied up that loose end last night. no? anyone wanna rewatch it and clarify?
of course, it would be cooler if ben knew the whole time in the future and was just playing dumb.
13. Evan
- 04/02/2009 11:15 am CDT
I liked this episode a lot. Probably because it had what makes me like Lost most - character redemption and flashbacks showing the events that lead up to it.
Kate going back for Claire is pretty brilliant and something I never saw coming. And give credit to E. Lilly for clearly being a better actress now and making it believable. I also like how the writers have made Kate and Juliet understanding friends, rather than rivals.
I agree with Bill that while the conversations between Hurley and Miles were funny, they were far to 'exposition-heavy'. It is one of my pet peeves when the authors/writers break the charm and fantasy world of their story by inserting themselves in, often with knowing winks. We know it is a story, but I want to suspend disbelief while I watch it. The Hurley/Miles converstations broke that barrier and seemed more like conversations between the writers than between the characters.
14. Bill
- 04/02/2009 11:21 am CDT
Stroke,
I heard the "he won't have any recollection of this" but I don't think that referred to him remembering the Losties in 1977. That would mean him not remembering 3 years and counting.
I thought it meant he won't remember his healing time with the Others. He won't remember it, but he'll always be one of them.
Something like that.
Even if he didn't remember getting shot (which I don't think RA was referring to) surely he'll find out about it because everyone else remembers it. Jin was even there.
So, no - I don't think that's an explanation.
And I don't think Ben "played dumb" in the future. The fact that he a) didn't kill Jin and Sayid when his thugs had them at gunpoint and b) he had a list of people he wanted (in season 2) who included Jack, Kate, Sawyer (and Hurley? Jin? I forget) tells me he knew.
Evan - excellent comment. I too think E Lilly did a great job in this one. And that's not something I normally think. Her eps still fall flat with me - I'm not sure why. But she did good.
Kate going back for Claire is something I didn't expect either. Totally took me off guard. I was SO GLAD she wasn't going back for Sawyer.
This episode helped cement the fact that Sawyer and Juliet are truly in love, and that the triangle/quadrangle is broken. I really, really hope that's true. The fact that Juliet let Sawyer go off alone with Kate is a testament to that. And the fact that Juliet is civil to Kate. The writers perhaps got the message that continuing to spin out the triangle was going to cost them viewers.
Another implausibility for me was the fact that you have a dying kid being jostled, thrown into a van, picked up, carried, etc. They didn't take much care, I thought. Perhaps because they knew he wouldn't die (even though they still did what it took to get help for him).
Head hurts.
16. Bill
- 04/02/2009 11:43 am CDT
One weird and very scary thought I had last night, because it was kind of telegraphed in the ep.
I wonder if Kate is going to hook up with Roger Linus? Be Ben's mom?
Don't tell me that couldn't happen. Between their little conversation, Roger saying Ben "needs a mother", etc.
17. Sherry Early
- 04/02/2009 12:07 pm CDT
Guys, some of us, who are a little slow and who have been trying all season to explain the time travel/time loops to one another, NEEDED the "exposition" in Hurley's and Miles's conversation to unfreeze our brains and give us some kind of handle for understanding. Even though I still don't, understand, that is. If Ben's NOT going to die no matter what anyone does, why should Kate and Juliet do anything? Just leave him on the table and let him revive himself somehow? Or the self-correcting universe will do it. How can anything be the "right thing" when it might be the wrong thing. Ben could have died when Sawyer was trekking him through the jungle . . . but he couldn't. SO Ben's supposed to go the the Others camp so he can lose his innocence and become Bad Ben whoo arranges the destruction of Dharma. So Jack did the "right thing" by refusing to treat Ben, except it's the wrong thing.
Maybe this whole series is a treatise against situational ethics. Since we can't know the consequences of our actions, we should always do the right thing (ethical, law-abiding) and damn the consequences.
18. Michele
- 04/02/2009 1:02 pm CDT
I didn't love this ep.
As much as it sounded like fans bringing up theories and hashing stuff out, the conversation between Hurley and Miles somehow felt contrived. Even though I always want the characters to talk about important stuff more, somehow it didn't help to have them do this. It started out real with Hurley's hand, but then disintegrated for me. Also, I'd begun to like Miles, and thought his using cruel nick-names dis-indeared him. He seemed to much like Sawyer, but without the personality.
Bill, I wanted to buy into Kate's pain and heroism, I really wanted to, but I sat, cold as a stone watching her leave Aaron. I tried to work up tears, imagining if it was me and my child, but she just still bugs me. I almost feel like praying about it.
As much as I liked them going back to Clementine, and seeing what happened with Cassidy, I didn't like how long they dwelt on her (Cass') character, nor the girl-talks she and Kate shared. I feel like we wasted valuable time that could've been spent dealing with past mysteries, checking in on Bernard, Desmond, etc. doing chick-pschycology stuff.
Also, if Ben is remembering them and playing dumb, then they should remember Ben, too.
19. Happy
- 04/02/2009 3:03 pm CDT
"what happened, happened." if that's really true, according to the time travel theory - as discussed so thoroughly that you couldn't miss it - then:
- Sayid had already shot Ben (leading to his eventual involvement with the Others) - and what Sayid said to Ben when Ben asked to be taken to them is all the more interesting: "that's why I'm here."
- Jack already refused to help Ben (also sparking the chain of events)
BUT - none of them could remember that because for them, the past is their present, so they're acting true to themselves, but also in the ways required to impact how the storyline plays out in the future. (an interesting take on predestination?) :)
And I don't think Ben will remember that Sayid shot him. He might remember some of the events before it and therefore the Losties - or maybe he just saw pictures later and recognized them? - but I think the circumstances at least surrounding his injury, if not his entire childhood up to that point, are what Richard meant. And I don't think Roger will get Ben back - so maybe Kate will help him cope with the loss?
It would be too weird if she ended up as Ben's mom. Ugh.
Seeing Ben's relationship with his dad made me kind of sad for him. It's strange to see Roger in a different light in this episode. That's the thing about this show - as soon as you think you know whether you like or dislike someone, you find out something new, and have to reconsider. about 12 times a season.
so... whatever happened to Faraday? did I miss something?
20. Bill
- 04/02/2009 3:04 pm CDT
Also, if Ben is remembering them and playing dumb, then they should remember Ben, too.
While I didn't think the Hurley/Miles convo was necessary, the comment above is one reason for it :-)
They don't remember Ben because that is in their personal past. These 1977 days are in their present, but in Ben's past.
In other words, the Losties on the island after the crash of 815 had not yet been to 1977, hence they would not remember it. Ben, on the other hand, was growing up in 1977 (it's in his past) and so he would.
Does that make sense?
21. Bill
- 04/02/2009 3:06 pm CDT
And I don't think Roger will get Ben back - so maybe Kate will help him cope with the loss?
But we know he does. Ben killed Roger (fifteen years later) when they were riding around together in a Dharma van. And it was obvious that they had continued on in their very disfunctional father/son relationship.
24. Quaid
- 04/03/2009 8:42 am CDT
Taylor - Jacob said "Help Me" which I think is just coincidence . . .
I feel that this episode was probably the worst of the season, although that's not a huge deal because I've really liked this season. Where was an episode like this in the middle of that 10-ep arc in Season three when we were learning about stupid buried treasures and tattoos that had no relevance to the macro-story? I would have gladly taken this.
I don't know that it's safe to say that Ben remembered anything until we know for certain what he does and doesn't remember. We know that he won't remember something, but I think we'll have to wait on the writers to outline that. I think Ben being removed from the Dharma Camp may have been somewhat contrived, as a plot device, to remove him from whatever is about to happen in the Dharma camp.
I would agree that it's quite probable that he doesn't forget the time he spent with Sawyer, Juliet, etc. in those three years.
I think this whole episode could have been boiled down to thirty minutes. The time-travel convo could have been much abridged, the girl-talks, I agree, were a bit overblown and pretty unnecessary. I don't think the Sawyer jumping out of the plane for his own ends theory makes any sense at all and while that's an interesting little idea, I don't buy it and believe my time was wasted.
Things I needed to know during this ep were:
What happened to Ben after the shooting
What Kate did with Aaron (and the reveal of her island-return motives was a good plus)
How Ben is corrupted
The last scene with Ben and Locke that was acted perfectly and set up next week's ep nicely
Here is my question:
"He will become one of us. He will lose his innocence."
What does this mean? To what extent will he become one of them? It certainly explains how the Others became so diverse (after all, Richard passes for an Egyptian, but Mrs. Klugh, Mr. Happy, Mikhail, etc. are all too diverse to hold the Egyptian civilization theory without a means of commuting new people into the fold).
What does it mean that Ben loses his innocence? It's almost like a parallel to the fall in Genesis.
AND:
If Ben is evil and he is fully one of the others, are the others also evil? I don't get the evil vibe from Alpert or any of the rest of the others. Are Alpert and Ellie part of the others, or not?
25. Bill
- 04/03/2009 9:55 am CDT
Great comment, Quaid.
I think that the Others are "the good guys", but in a way that's very hidden from us at this point. In other words, I think they at least believe they have a noble purpose. Perhaps their work (whatever it is) is preventing the end of the world or something. Whatever it is, it must be important to explain how single-minded and ruthless they appear to be.
That's my take, at least. I'm expecting some ambiguity as Lost winds down, regarding who is the white side and who is the black side. They writers have already written in a lot of ambiguity to the main characters (Sayid is a classic example of that).
26. Michele
- 04/03/2009 11:20 am CDT
If Kate's there to find Claire, she sure isn't trying very hard. We thought it was strange not one of the 6 asked Jin and Co. what happened to her. The classic Lost-non-communication.
Did anyone else notice the bullet hole had switched sides on Ben from last week? It went in at the heart, but was on the opposite of the chest when Jin flopped him over.
Also, what's up with Juliet walking in on Jack nakey? I mean, she obviously had time to get out of her scrubs, she wasn't in that big of a hurry. What if he'd been using the toilet-would she have done it then? Annoying and unnecesarry sexy stuff.
Great comments, all.
Leave a Comment:
I think they are seriously telegraphing a big redemption moment for Jack. I just hope it's not a "he's gotta die for the island" kind of thing. We'd all like to see Jack live happily for a little while, wouldn't we?
On the other hand, I don't knock anything Jack has done or hasn't. If Sayid isn't evil for shooting Ben, Jack isn't evil for refusing to fix him.
Plus there is the Ontological Law of Jack, which stipulates that anything Jack does is good by virtue of the fact that Jack has done it.