"Membership in the family of God is neither inconsequential or something to be casually ignored. The church is God's agenda for the world. Jesus said, "I will build my church, and all the powers of hell will not conquer it." The church is indestructable and will exist for eternity. It will outlive this universe, and so will your role in it."

- Rick Warren
More Reasons to Reform the Christian Subculture

Want to know what an intelligent nonChristian thinks of our Christian subculture? Check out GQ Magazine's literary editor Walter Kirn's journal account of his seven day immersion in all products "Christian."

Funny, thoughtful, and sobering.

Saw this via Emerging Minister.

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Comments on "More Reasons to Reform the Christian Subculture":
1. Daniel - 08/08/2003 1:52 am CDT

That is pretty sobering. The key paragraph, I think, is this one:

"What makes the stuff so half-assed, so thin, so weak and cumulatively so demoralizing (even to me, a sympathetic journalist who'd secretly love to play the brash contrarian and rate the Left Behind books above Tom Clancy) has nothing to do with faith. The problem is lack of faith. Ark culture is a bad Xerox of the mainstream, not a truly distinctive or separate achievement. Without the courage to lead, it numbly follows, picking up the major media's scraps and gluing them back together with a cross on top. You like this magazine--you like GQ Then check out New Man, "America's #1 Christian Men's Magazine." Subscribe to Time, you say? Give World a chance. The covers are almost identical."

I actually agreed with many of his points. However, on the dinosaurs thing he portrays us all as backwoods hillbillies for having actual belief in something.
However, I don't think I would want to spend a week totally immersed in the subculture we built.

2. Luke - 08/08/2003 4:26 am CDT

I totally agree. (New here, BTW) When I first saw the "What would Jesus Eat" book, I wanted to vomit. Christitans really make me sick sometimes because we will buy anything that has a cross on it. My favorite picture at the local Christian Bookstore is the one with Jesus kneeling over next to the Liberty Bell, with his hands on the crack, praying for it. I am sure glad Christ died for democracy.

C.S. Lewis said that it is better to have works that are good works with christian undertones rather than works that are blatantly christian. (ala Chronicles of Narnia) Can the christian subculture be fixed, or is better left alone?

3. Jared - 08/08/2003 4:28 am CDT

Yeah, I think obviously this guy has a chip on his shoulder somewhat. And some things were going to offend his "lost sensibilities."
But for the most part, he is honest and penetrating, even when sarcastic.
Seeing all of our "stuff" together like that really illuminates the problem, IMHO.

4. Mac Swift - 08/08/2003 5:08 am CDT

When the world points out the incongruities of the Christian faith that is overlooked or unnoticed by Christians themselves, it suggests that we have a problem.

5. Brian - 08/08/2003 5:56 am CDT

One thing that stood out, is that he was not "selective" in his slice of Christian "life" that he chose from. I don't know many people who would watch TBN who would also listen to POD.

Most people pick and choose pieces of that "life" that suits their tastes.

Second, of the things Christians choose to immerse themselves in, there is a context. If I watch Touched by an Angel, it doesn't define me, I define it--I put what I see in the context of what I believe. I tend to auto-eliminate the stuff I consider as fluff or trash, and enjoy the rest.

This author went about the task in a more or less indiscriminate way which I think is gonna magnify the incongruities.

And I have no idea what radio station he was listening to, but I'm glad that neither of the two major Christian stations in Houston are that way. I think both are top-notch, and stand on their own in both quality and substance. Maybe we're just blessed? :-)

What's funny is that as I was reading his comments about the music, I was reminded of a prior post here regarding the distinction of CCM as it's own category of music.

All that said, "sobering" is a good description of it.

6. jen - 08/08/2003 6:01 am CDT

Yeah, I had a really heavy spirit after reading that last night that, to be honest, lingers today. I expected some of his assessment, but I was blown away at how negatively we come across as a subculture. Very illuminating indeed.

It's part of why I'm concerned that Christians insulate themselves from the world too much. We can be (and are called to be) in the world without becoming a part of it. It's part of the main reason when I left Young Life staff, I determined that I would pursue a secular job. It was too "safe" for me to work with Christians all day, every day. I need to be sharpened by those who don't believe what I believe, and I need to be light in the dark.

7. Mac Swift - 08/08/2003 6:18 am CDT

Jen,

Are there actually Christians who say we shouldn't have secular jobs? I would find myself taken aback if a Christian complained to me that I was being worldly simply because of the job I held (unless the job entailed being a manager for Hooty McBoob's night club) O:-)

8. Jared - 08/08/2003 6:50 am CDT

"Are there actually Christians who say we shouldn't have secular jobs?"
Yes, but probably not many of them. It would be just impossible to do this.
Now, there are many more Christians who say we shouldn't give our money to secular companies, which is why we have the Shepherd's Guide "Christian Yellow Pages" and lots of Icthus-es on business cards.

9. jen - 08/08/2003 7:19 am CDT

Mac, that's not what I meant to imply. I was just saying for me, I've learned from a few experiences where I've been insulated from the secular world a little too much. One being my Christian college years and my time on Young Life staff.

Now that's not to say that God didn't put me in those places for a reason. I loved my college years and I was probably protected from obvious problems I may have gotten into at a secular college, plus I think God used those years to help me become the more self-assured and independent woman I am today. But I had a crisis of faith right after college, where for about 2 years I was ready to bag my faith because all I had been exposed to was "The Ark" as the writer of that GQ article called it.

And I have no doubt that God called me to Young Life staff. I was immensely blessed by my experience working with other staff. But I was super-insulated for 5 years - and a bad working relationship with someone in my last year on staff made me really disillusioned with my fellow Christian workers. So when I left, I needed to step back from full-time Christian service.

But that's just my experience - I need the challenge of my unbelieving co-workers and friends. It pushes me to seek after God more than when I'm in a safe Christian environment all the time.

10. Alexandra - 08/08/2003 7:28 am CDT

Today's quote at the top of the page goes well with this thread, "The proper focus of holiness is not on being set apart from something (i.e., the world), but on being set apart for something." Michael Horton - PUTTING AMAZING BACK INTO GRACE

Rob ( http://home.bagpipe.com/news.php ) just got a credit card in the mail that gives points to by Christian kitsch. *eyeball roll*

11. Jared - 08/08/2003 7:36 am CDT

The Horton quote also goes well with recent discussions on this site about what it means to be in the culture and how we evangelize and what it means to "come out from their midst and be separate.";"0

12. Jen Speaks - 08/08/2003 8:46 am CDT

In The World, Not Of It
It's a fine line for Christians. Scripture says, "be in the world, but not of it." OK. How do we do that? Especially today, when we have a Christian subculture that continually segregates itself from society. We have our own music, our own art, our ...

13. Mac Swift - 08/08/2003 2:58 pm CDT

Jen, thanks for clarifying!

Luke, the funny thing is I actually refuted the book "What Would Jesus Eat?" or a book like it at my blog when I started my program to lose weight.

I just noticed now this particular quote:

"The problem is lack of faith. Ark {Christian} culture is a bad Xerox of the mainstream, not a truly distinctive or separate achievement. Without the courage to lead, it numbly follows, picking up the major media's scraps and gluing them back together with a cross on top."

That's been almost ad verbatim what I've been screaming at the top of my lungs for the past uh, let's see, 10 years at least. :-D

14. Jen's Dad - 08/08/2003 4:11 pm CDT

I posted this at EmergingMinister. I thought I'd put the same thing here for those who come here, not there.

I read the article. It was sad, not just because some Christians are commercializing their religion, but because the author missed most of the real point--to have Christian alternatives for people who _want_ them. The idea isn't that as a Christian I HAVE to use Scripture-mints, or wear a WWJD bracelet, or listen to Audio Adrenaline, it's that I have a choice available to me. Personally, I choose a gold bracelet, Altoids and (usually) whatever is playing on my local CCM radio station. But if the commercial interests were not there, I wouldn't have the choice. I couldn't choose whether to get my granddaughter a Big Ideas VeggieTale movie, or whether to read a good Christian novel. (There are plenty of bad novels, both Christian and not, but there are also some good Christian novels!) I wouldn't have the option to put a plastic fish on the back of my car. Get the drift?

The author had an ax to grind, and he ground it well. But he missed the point. It's not immersion and isolation, although some go to extremes and do that, it's about having options to choose a Christian alternative when I want to.

One more point. The Jabez thing is yet another example of a good thing gone bad. I read Jabez. The idea I got from it is that if I pray, God will broaden my field. What's my field? It's supposed to be what God wants for me, not what I want from God. But somehow the story got changed, not necessarily by Bruce, but it did get changed. Now it is the latest incantation of the prosperity gospel. (I actually heard a telepreacher say that if you didn't get the car you wanted you hadn't prayed hard enough! As if somehow praying hard forces God into doing what I want! Please, God, DON'T ever do what I want, do what You want! That's my prayer.) But the fundamental idea behind Jabez is still sound. I pray for God to broaden my fields every day, just so that I can do more work in His harvest, not because I want more grain in my barns.

15. eliot - 08/08/2003 6:14 pm CDT

Stepping out of the Ark
Time to mop up the Christian subculture -- a perspective from Walter Kirn, literary editor of GQ magazine.

16. jen - 08/09/2003 3:57 am CDT

As usual, my dad makes excellent points.

17. Jared - 08/09/2003 4:13 am CDT

Jen's Dad, my problem has never really been with the proliferation of the stuff, just its content. My beef isn't with quantity; it's with quality.
I wouldn't mind more Christian "products" if more were original, innovative, better written and produced, etc.
And at some point don't you think it gets a little inappropriate slapping Jesus' name or a Scripture reference on a can of mints?

And Mac, I think perhaps the difference is that you may have been decrying its worldliness and compromise. While we have been saying its lazy and lame.

18. Mac Swift - 08/09/2003 5:52 am CDT

Jared, I guess it's a little of both.

One wonders how much of a distinction must be made before the world and even Christians would see the Christian "industry" as not something that's a rip-off of the secular industry, but something entirely different, something that just says, "God is here"?

One of my long reaching dreams has been to create my own animated movies based on the Bible, real and graphic and just how it happened material. Current technology and my computer abilities put that out of reach though. But I think that is what is needed. Something REAL. The world sees the Christian alternative to everything they have, and there's a sense of phoniness, of fakeness to it all. If we offered Christ as he really is, in the spirit of John Starnes' "It's Real", it would transform Christian culture and bring us back from the brink of having a lukewarm spirit. Ironically enough, I believe Gibson's "The Passion" approaches that level I'd like to see in all of Christian culture.

19. Jen's Dad - 08/09/2003 10:31 am CDT

Jared, you are correct. Lousy products are lousy products, whether "Christian" or secular. It is unfortunate that some of the "Christian" products are of poor quality, but there are good products as well. Chick-fil-a, Big Ideas and Interstate Battery are three Christian owned companies that focus on quality and compete in their market space very well. Just because someone call it "Christian" doesn't automatically make it good, but given the choice between equal quality products, I'll tend to go with the Christian one, if for no other reason than to support a fellow believer.

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