Excellent, Jared. The Mr. Rogers bashing in WAH bothered me as well, just because it's gratuitous and profoundly unfair. Mr. Rogers is not a cartoon - he was a real man and doesn't deserve to be slammed. Same with Mother Theresa (who Eldredge also backhands a bit in his book).

I find Eldgredge's obsession with Hollywood images as vehicles of truth to be troubling. All truth is God's truth, of course, but he goes completely overboard.

Here, here! I wish I could quote from a medieval poem about Christ's death, but to boil into a palatable pablum for modern readers (not us, of course, but visitors from the nether regions of cyberspace, public-school-and-hours-of-TV-watching types :) ), the poem depicted Christ's sacrifice as a great victory for a mighty warrior. It was written in a warrior cultural, and the writer was spinning the image of Christ's work with cultural thoughts. Maybe Eld. is doing the same thing in his mind.

I think Eldredge's fault is not that he points out the warrior aspect of Christ. It's more in Eldredge's one-dimensional portrayal of Christ as a "William Wallace, not Mr. Rogers" that he falters.

Jesus was the Man of all men, and He is not so easily pigeonholed. The paradox is that He did defeat death and Satan, conquering and making us more than conquerors, and He led captivity captive. He is the King of kings and the Lord of lords, and every knee shall bow. But He did all this by coming in the form of a servant, not considering equality with God something to be grasped, and He died like a lamb led to the slaughter. He preached a gospel of meekness (not weakness) to His followers.

Was Jesus a Mr. Rogers? Not exactly. Was He William Wallace? Not exactly.

Should we as Christian men pattern our lives after the one-dimensional icons setup in WAH?

imho, not exactly.

More from Eldridge
Released in July 2003, Waking the Dead, The Glory of a Heart Fully Alive
From Amazon's page, "Eldredge, who helped to redefine the Christian men's movement with Wild at Heart, broadens his scope to offer this more general spirituality title on being "fully alive." Such a state of total animation is achieved only when Christians can integrate all four "streams" of their lives: discipleship, counseling, healing and warfare. (This last part may surprise some readers, but Eldredge insists that awareness of spiritual warfare actually "may be the most critical" aspect of being fully alive.) Throughout, he argues that there is glory hidden in each Christian's heart, an echo of how Christ has "ransomed and restored" every person. The goal, then, is to capture and maintain a sense of liberation from that restoration. Eldredge fans will find that he has not departed much from the formula that made Wild at Heart so successful; he culls examples from popular culture (The Perfect Storm, The Matrix, The Lord of the Rings, The Wizard of Oz) and tells vivid stories from his own experience. Despite the careful formula, the book rarely feels formulaic; it has an unguarded heart and an opinionated lucidity that may surprise readers. Eldredge is honest about the fact that life can be arduous, confusing and filled with despair, but he also affirms a deep Christian hope. Established Eldredge fans will be pleased with this new offering, and it will gather some new readers, especially women."

See the Amazon page for more. I'd like to find an excerpt from the book or maybe read a little at Books-a-Million in order to write something on my weblog. A top Amazon reviewer has criticized its theology. Take note of his book summary.

Re: Comment #3

Bill, right. That's why my point here is not that Eldredge is wrong in saying Jesus was not a wimp and was actually a pretty tough guy.
My argument is with the characterizations he's making based on these entertainment icons.
First, why is Mr. Rogers a wimp? I don't know that he was. His show was for and with kids. What's he supposed to do, teach them to box? (Wait -- given the "hit the bully" thing, maybe that is what he should have done. ;-)
I think Mr. Rogers was a great guy.
And I'm just not convinced Jesus was really like Maximus or William Wallace. Maybe in the sense that they were all principled men who eventually were killed for their principles. But I think the comparison ends there.

I guess I'm just hacked that Mr. Rogers is thought of as a wimp, when in my estimation he treated kids exactly as Jesus would. I wonder how many followers thought Jesus was "soft" when He was entertaining the children?

Oh, btw, Bill: I offered a rebuttal to your Simpsons take over at Robert's xian liberty post that I've been dying for you to see. ;-)

Bill, great quote for today, sir.

"Gentleness is a divine trait; nothing is so strong as gentleness and nothing is so gentle as real strength" --Ralph W Sockman

I liked Mr. Rogers. I think Eldredge is just using him as a convenient stereotype of a pushover, soft spoke, overly nice guy. Which doesn't describe the real Jesus at all.

I didn't get "be a physically tough guy" from WAH at all. But maybe I missed something. I got "be a _spiritually_ tough guy" from it. Where WAH touched on not being a pushover, it was usually in the context of standing up for what was right. Which does seem like something the real Mr. Rogers would do.

I'm going to write a best-seller. Everything I Needed to Know about Being a Godly Man I Learned from Mr. Rogers

Jared - I completely agree.

Robert - then that begs the question why Eldredge continuously hammers on Mr. Rogers.

Below are some interesting quotes from the reviews that Raindream pointed me to (I apologize for the length). As usual, reviews questioning the theology of Eldredge's writing are sprinkled in with (much shorter) reviews calling it the best, most influential work they've ever read.

A snippet:

Eldridge's book ultimately focuses on the realization of human glory. I suggest this stands in stark contrast to the New Testament. However, before I critique his conclusion, let me first convey his approach.

Here is a summary of the book:
1. God wants us to be happy. (Starting and presumed premise)
2. However, we are not always happy. (Provides real-life examples)
3. Therefore, we are either blowing it or God is. (Eldridge's words)
4. The fault cannot be God's therefore it must be ours. (Assumed conclusion)
5. God's glory is 'man fully alive'. (Read 'fully alive' as 'fully happy')
6. 'God's happiness and my happiness are tied together'. (A direct quote from the book)
7. Therefore, 'God's committed to my happiness'. (Another quote)
8. In fact, 'my happiness is the purpose of Christianity'. (An abbreviated quote)
9. Final conclusion: I need to live for myself (Summary)

I promise you, promise, promise, promise, I'm not pulling your leg. This is all directly from the first chapter! If you want page numbers and more details, feel free to e-mail me. The first chapter is really the substance of the book as the rest of the book becomes footnotes to this primary chapter.

Ok, the outline above stands in direct contrast to the words of Jesus, Peter, Paul, John, James, and ultimately - God the Father.

Here's a summary of the New Testament:
1. God wants us to be holy (Matt. 5:48)
2. Because of this God is far more concerned with our character than He is with our comfort/happiness. (Romans 5:3-5!)
3. This is because our happiness is fleeting and our character remains for eternity. (James 4:14)
4. We will have trials, troubles, and tribulation in this world. (Acts 5:41)
5. Take heart, for God has over-come the world through Christ. (John 16:33)
6. Jesus will be our source of strength and peace through this difficult life. (John 15)
7. I need to live for Him. He is the source of real joy despite life-circumstances. (Luke 9:23&24)

As a result, I am disappointed in the book - not because I didn't 'like' it, but because I'm convinced that it misrepresents scripture - including Christ's person and work. Far from waking the dead, I believe this book ends up misleading the living.

If you're forgetting why the gospel is called The Good News, read this book. John has a pretty amazing and unique way of explaining spiritual truth. Not only has it helped me to see my identity in Christ for what it is and to understand God's word more clearly, it has wakened my dead spiritual life in a way that can't be explained in 1,000 words or less.

I've just finished reading not only the best Christian book I've ever read, but the most important Christian book I've ever read. John Eldredge's, Waking the Dead, confronts the goodness of our hearts with images and words that will make you hug yourself in relief.
Also, he takes on spiritual warfare better than anyone I've read in 30 years. I've read good books on this subject, but John clarifies extraordinaire. Listen to this from John: ". . . the enemy knows you are trying to walk with God and tune into your heart - he'll play the ventriloquist and try to deceive you there. Any word or suggestion that brings discouragement, condemnation, accusation - that is not from God. Satan's accusation kills our hearts. There is a gravitational field the enemy creates around a person that pulls everyone in her life to do to her what he is doing to her. Remember the enemy fears you - fears your heart coming alive and full and free."
John talks much of what it means to fight for your heart and the glory of your heart. I think you could be flabbergasted in how you are not fighting for your heart and to realize you cannot really fight for the heart of others when you cannot or will not do the same for yourself. John enabled me to comprehend some relationships in my life where I let the enemy deceive me into not believing the goodness of their hearts. So much so that I felt much oozing from my heart in forgiveness for those who have caused me harm.

Which is why my post isn't about what Eldredge "really means." It's taking his examples and examining them on the surface. Superficially, I think they are fundamentally flawed. There's got to be some "tough guys who didn't fight" out there he could have used.
I think he sets up a false dichtomy using these examples -- violent guy versus wimpy guy. Jesus was neither. And just looking at what his examples were really like, I think Jesus was more like Mr. Rogers, so in that sense, I think Eldredge is wrong.

Disclaimer:

I haven't read Wake The Dead

I'm sure, like Wild At Heart that there is some good in it.

I don't think the book is for me.

And - I'm in the minority.

Of the 12 reviews of Wake the Dead, only the first (part of which I exerpted in comment #10) had reservations. The other 11 are totally, frantically, and passionately "pro".

I picked up a copy of Waking the Dead when I bought Wild at Heart. They were right next to each other on the shelf, and at only $10 each, I couldn't resist. I'll have to take a look at it.

Well, let us know what you think. I won't be able to intelligently discuss it, however, because I haven't read it.

(not that my WAH discussion was all that intelligent)

Robert - one thing that I've also wondered about. And this isn't a baiting thing at all - just an observation/question. Our own Jared has been mercilessly pounded by various people on both his blog and ours regarding his choices of movies. We've all read the "How could a Christian expose themself to that?" type of questions.

I don't see why Eldredge gets a pass, as he bases a whole lot of his material (and his quotes) on movies like Braveheart and Gladiator, both of which were rated "R" for violence (and, ironically, neither of which I've seen because I have this personal conviction about not watching R- rated movies).

I didn't get "be a physically tough guy" from WAH at all.

Robert, did you read the "beat the bully" parts?

I haven't mustered up the courage to read Waking the Dead yet, but I fear more of the same WaH mindset.

I don't see why Eldredge gets a pass

Bill, a well-known performer is quoted here a fair amount in positive ways. This same man used the "F-word" on public TV not too long ago. Now I'm sure you and I have the same convictions about foul language, but it's not hypocritical to quote someone when he says something good.

My preacher also watches a LOT of movies that I really don't think Christians should watch. Sometimes he even uses illustrations from those movies. I know him fairly well and could give a whole litany of his shortcomings. It doesn't mean he's not an outstanding preacher and a godly man who I respect.

To the extent that I even care what ANYONE outside my own family says, does, watches, etc., a standard in one or more areas that I disagree with does not translate into a total judgment on that person or anything he might say. It's not my position that someone be perfect to be used by God.

Robert, did you read the "beat the bully" parts?

Yeah. Eldredge's 5 or 6 year old boy was being picked on by a bully. Eldredge told him that the next time it happened, he should hit the bully in the nose.

I don't think that's the same as being a tough guy. It's just an example of standing up to things that need to be confronted.

the same WaH mindset.

I think you're reading WAH very differently than I did. I've put some of my WAH notes up on my site; maybe it will be useful.

Robert,

Sorry - I didn't mean to offend

Wuh? I didn't mean to sound offended. I certainly wasn't feeling offended.

Good :-)

I figure you get a little tired of the non-stop Eldredge bashing in this space :-)

I must be a masochist because I keep coming back for more! :-)

Jared must be a masochist because he hasn't banned me yet!

Why would I ban you?
Ignoring and deleting a comment here and there are much more effective defensive tactics. ;-)

For the record, I did ask the Thinklings to ban you (since it's not up to one person alone), and the vote was split 3-3 until the deciding vote in your favor was cast by Blo.

Was someone here talking about me?

Of course, I totally agree with Rod's take here. Furthermore, I think Drudge's love of the Halfling leaf has clearly slowed his mind.

LOL

Also, I love Rod's great turn of a phrase: John Eldredge's Gandalfian mug

That's epic!

Speaking of Robert's masochism, he posts his notes on WAH and gets athiests commenting on his site. The dude can't win.

Um. I meant "atheists". d'oh . . .

Re: comment 10. Though I didn't say it when I first read it, I think the person who learned to forgive after reading Waking the Dead got a great benefit from the book. Even if the book is terrible, learning forgiveness in Christ's love is important and can be difficult.

Definitely!

Having not read Waking the Dead I cannot say anything pro or con it, but it's obvious that Eldredge's writings are significantly impacting a large number of people, hopefully for good and for God. I have not been impressed with either his writing or his at times questionable Biblical interpretation (as I've harped on incessantly) but I'm glad some people are benefiting. Again - hopefully they're benefiting in a way that pleases God.

I think this snippet from above is flawed:
5. God's glory is 'man fully alive'. (Read 'fully alive' as 'fully happy')

Fully happy is not a correct interpretation and that is why the rest of the list looks like the objective is to live for yourself.

Fully alive is realizing who you are and what God meant when He meant you and living to that potential. My faith is that God's plan is the only one (regardless of how physically easy or hard) that will fulfill the desires of my heart (placed there by God.)

The book claims that Satan is trying to destroy your heart so that you can't live to your potential.

(if you dont' post this, please at least read it, I put alot of time into it)
Ben, 20


I think that anybody that bashing something before reading it is unwise. People bash Christians when they don't know anything about it. As for the commercials... well, how do you get a 20 kid to read a book about being a Godly man? Now i know that there are Kids who grew up in the Church and would read something called, "Being like Jesus, gentle and pure" (which he was no doubt), but then there are also others like me who left the church for years and got into all of the stupid stuff... hit dead bottom and then came back. Those guys are going to be attracted to things talking about Jesus being like William Wallace... because being warriors and having something to fight for in and natural desire in them... that they haven't found an answer for.

Now in reply to Bill - He does not bash Mr. Rogers, and he doesn't bash Mother Teresa. What he says is, "To those who are in tender need, who just want someone to care and love them... he is indeed to the center of mercy and grace - Mother Teresa" But "To those who will stop at nothing to hold back God,who oppose it, they had better watch out." When he talks about Jesus being like William, he doesn't mean... that he was violent... he means that he had the same type of heart. He persevered, he gives people identity, a reason to fight. "they'd better watch out" - I dont' have time to write that much... so what he wrote to elaborate on this - what I got from it was I can't fall inline, I can't be a meek Christian... it doesn't mean I'm going to stand on my box and yell (stupid) But I'm not going to sit here while somebody is spreading false information about my God, or using him as slander... and making fun of him. Maybe I can't stop him, but I'm not going to sit here in the corner and remain quiet... Jesus didn't when the Pharisees were merely thinking wrong (think about that)... he called them out boldly.

Ah yes, the Mr Rogers thing, HE DOES NOT BASH HIM... he just says that Jesus was more than just a nic guy, wait! I know that Mr Roger was more than a nice guy and he says that too. But what he going at is what MOST people think of when they hear the name Mr Rogers in comparisson to Wallace (I think you know what I mean). I mean, when I get down and think about it, He was a very good and honorable man... but when I just glance I see the really nice guy and the show... that's what most people see.

If you really want to be able to argue the book then you should read it. Stop bashing things that you haven't read... please.

In reality... all desires in man's heart are real desire's... just we try to satisfy them the wrong way.
He uses Braveheart and Gladiator and The Patriot... and movies like that because... as men, we relate to them. We want that... our heart tells us that we want that. It's not the killing and the blood shedd we want. It's the haveing something to fight for, to be part something bigger than us, to have purpose (in those movies the main character has crazy purpose)... to have something worth dying for. When we watch those movies and at the end we get the warm fuzy feeling inside us... 'I wish I had that'... God is calling your name... he's tugging at your heart... something sparked one of the desire's that you've killed. And our culture nowadays kills that, "stop being wild and go be responsible... be gentle... don't fight back."

When we listen to that... and conform to that we kill that which makes us men... which makes us like our Heavenly father... like Jesus.

2 Timothy 2:3 Endure hardship with us like a good soldier of Jesus Christ (4) No one serving as a Soldier gets involved with Civilian affairs - He wants to please his commanding officer.

I mean, come on, the Bible tells us to abandon our lives... truely... and serve him. We are at war, and we are warriors under Jesus Christ. "No soldier gets involved with civilian affairs." "No man has time to get involved with world, come on, leave that stuff behind and fight with me!!!" I mean, doesn't that just hit home? To have a purpose to actually feel like time is ticking... But, in teh book he makes it clear that we are not fighting in the flesh like Wallace... but we are fighting... a real war. (please dont' feel like I'm trying to preach to you... I'm just trying my best to tell what the book talks about). A song that I love by a bond called Jonah 33 says "Watching you die, watching you die... your blood is on me" If you find what the band ment by that... they are talking about Jesus' blood on us, but also, unbeliever's blood is on us... it's our job.

"Gentleness is a divine trait; nothing is so strong as gentleness and nothing is so gentle as real strength" --Ralph W Sockman

-After reading the book and agreeing with the book... I still agree fully with this. The book talks about Jesus' gentleness and his warrior like boldness.
He did have both... and he knew when to be bold, and he knew when to be merciful, and gentle.

"I liked Mr. Rogers. I think Eldredge is just using him as a convenient stereotype of a pushover, soft spoke, overly nice guy. Which doesn't describe the real Jesus at all."
-which is why he used him, because, you may not think that, but many people do... so it speaks to them.

Raindreams review... or breakdown or whatever that was... uh, I don't think that I read the same book... must've read someother book called "wild at heart"

I dont' agree with most of what the review states but I will only state a few...
5. God's glory is 'man fully alive'. (Read 'fully alive' as 'fully happy') - this is taken outta context... it talks about the fact that everybody always talks about how it is so awesome how God's glory is revealed in nature (and it most definitely is)... but that that was ment as last resort. We are the first line, we are the plan... we were created in the image of God... us being like God(because of personal relationship, being submissive, and living for him-not ourselves) is what he wants to show his glory through. "They will see me by the way you treat eachother."

9. Final conclusion: I need to live for myself (Summary)
Dont' know where he got that from... I mean the book does talk about God being committed to your happiness... but not the way that one quote makes it sound. Actually, I like what this guy above said,

"Fully alive is realizing who you are and what God meant when He created you and living to that potential. My faith is that God's plan is the only one (regardless of how physically easy or hard) that will fulfill the desires of my heart (placed there by God.)

The book claims that Satan is trying to destroy your heart so that you can't live to your potential."

I respect you guys who don't watch rates R movies (and I won't watch the ones that have anykind of sexual stuff in them)... and please don't assume that I use foul language, because I don't. But this is a great quote I'm heard before... from a pastor making a point... "there are over 1.5 billion people on the earth who have not even heard the word Jesus, and you guys don't give a darn about it. And the worst part is, is that many of you in here are more upset about that I swore in church then about those people going to hell in a hand basket."

William Wallace, "many men die, but few men live"
Paul, "when I overcome the fear of death (and the reasons that go with it)... only then can I truely live";"0

And by writing all of that, I haven't even touched the surface of the book talks about... it talks about why we need to responsible as Godly men and so forth... and the fact that the only way that we can do anything worthy is through God.

Ok, I'm probably going to get banned to posting so much at one time, but, I just noticed that it corrected my (justified for the purpose I was making) swear work... in the pastor's speach, he used the real swear work, not "darn"

Ok, please don't ban me, I'm done now.

Hi Ben

I'm glad you posted and have no plans on banning you :-) - it'd be good to hear more from you.

A few quick comments - we have an entire Category on Thinklings to discuss WAH - you might want to check out the other threads. There's some interesting reading there.

Also - maybe you were referring to Jared who hasn't read the book. I can assure you that I did read it, quite carefully.

Finally - to set your mind at ease. I fully believe that God made us men to be warriors for Him. One of my passions as I work with students is to try and teach the guys how to be men - balanced Godly men who understand both the gentleness and humility of Christ and also who are able to go to battle, to stand up and fight for the Kingdom. I have so much to learn myself in this area, I barely can bring myself to talk about it. I am no expert.

I can imagine that if you and I sat down to talk this over we'd probably agree 90%. But in reading WAH I found many things that were theologically suspect, unbalanced, written in certain ways for "shock value" or otherwise troubling. It's frustrating, because the message is a good one, but Eldredge managed to trivialize it down to "be a wild, not-nice guy!" - and make a ton of boodle in the process, selling that blasted book.

But you are free to disagree - again, we'd love to have you back!

Ben - DUDE!

You will so not be banned for making rational arguments (no matter how long they are:)

I want you to know that I've read the book too. (actually Bill loaned me his copy, so you could say that we both read the same book - literally)


Bill sums it up pretty well in his most recent post. Do check out the other threads. Some of them go on for a while, so it is something interesting to read through when you have some spare web time.

My two cents (read as IMHO):
Eldredge has the best of motives when writing this book. He is most likely a very Godly man who has a wonderful family.

I, personally, do not back down from being a warrior for Christ, but I keep in mind Ephesians 6:12

"For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."

Eldredge turns to physical violence in his book at times. I do want to be more Wallace - but in the heavenly realms - not physically. I think that this is where Bill, you and I would all agree. On the outside, however, I hope that you will find me very much like Mr. Rogers. Nice and maybe even a bit of a pushover. You want my cloak and my tunic? okay - here you go. This sounds like a pushover to me - but this is exactly where Jesus called me to be.

In the heavenly realms, however, I hope to be a warrior. In fact, if God wills that I live a long life, I hope to be a 4-star general in the spiritual realms down the road. I hope to follow our commander-in-chief in battle every second of every day. I hope to put to death the lies that war over our souls and use the sword of truth given us to take out things left and right. Let's go - I'm ready to kill.

Ideally, I'll do all of this without even having to clench my fists.


"You'll have something you'll want to talk about, I will too."
-Fred Rogers

Thankyou guys,

I guess the only thing that we saw differently about the book was to part where he talks about the violence of wallace and so forth... and I can understand how you took it the way you did, and maybe that is the way it is portrayed. Probably the reason that I didn't see it that way is because I have an awesome young adult pastor who focused more on what you guys are talking about when we discussed those parts of the book. And because of that the only thing that I took from those parts was the heart and determination, and purpose that those guys had. I never saw it in physical realm of violence... I just instantly saw it in spiritual realm and aplicable to my life as a Christian... because in Braveheart Wallace was extremely gentle most of the time (the Hollywood Wallace was a well balanced man, well by human standards)... he hated fighting and hated war... but when he saw that the only way to reclaim his land, was to step up and take a stand for what he believed and lived for... no matter the price, that's what he did.

I completely agree with you about being Mr Rogers on the outside... and waring in spirit. I am constantly asking God to give me wisdom in when to be soft and loving and when to be flat out bold and maybe offend someone.

anyways, I don't want to be Mr Rogers, and in that case, I don't want to be Wallace... I want to be like the one who they can't even hope to be compared to(it's funny that if we try with all of our might to be like Jesus... and we maybe doing a great job by comparison to some... we still fall so short :) I want to be like Jesus. Anyways, I think that we agree on most of this.

"The Kingdom suffers violence, therefore violent men must take it by force"

Ben

I want to be like the one who they can't even hope to be compared to

agreed

Thanks for stopping by, Ben. hope to see you around some more
:)

In the review of Waking the Dead,
there is this statement:

4. The fault cannot be God's therefore it must be ours. (Assumed conclusion)

Whoever wrote the review was right to say it is an assumed conclusion. The book says the reason we are not fully alive is because we are in the middle of a very real war, which is what the Bible says. see above - Our struggle is not against .... but against ... the spiritual forces of evil...
I for one feel like I'm in the heat of the battle and tho it isn't physical bloodshed, I feel as if I need to be renamed Deborah or Joan of Arc or something, cause I'm telling you this battle is real.
As a woman, I've appreciated all of Eldredge's books. Especially Waking the Dead. Mostly for it's emphasis on my heart - when in Christ is good because Christ lives in me, and satan, the accuser wants to steal my heart, so, I need to put on the armor of God and stand strong in Him.

Don't you people have anything better to do with your LIFE than to be CRITICAL????

Robert, do I need to point out to you that one blog post does not constitute "life"? On this site we are frequently critical of things that we think require criticism.
You do realize you are criticizing us with your comment, right? Do you have anything better to do?

I'd also remind you that the criticism in this post is predicated on John Eldredge's criticism of Mr. Rogers. So if it's the anti-Eldredge stuff you're taking offense to, I have merely to say, with as much childish indignation as I can muster, "He started it!"

Have a great day.