We switched to Macs 3 years ago after years of PC. I will never switch back.

I've had the exact opposite experience from you, Bird.

Plus, everything on a PC is opposite where it is on a Mac. :-)

to right click, place two fingers on the track pad and click.

I have a love hate relationship with my Mac. After using PC's for years it is hard to give up being able to delete and having to drag stuff into the trash. Mac's are just as exasperating as PC's. I have to ask for technical help just as often as I did on PC's. I'll be glad when computers run like our automatic drive cars. You don't have to understand it-- just put it into the right gear!

I'm generally put off by the overall smugness of Apple and Apple-fanboys. That and the high price of entry has been enough to keep me away from Macs since my college days.

Also, my experience with computer stuff that's supposed to be great 'cause it 'just works' is that it works great if you generally work like the rest of the population. If you tend to cut across the grain, you're gonna be in for a long fight. It's gonna assume that you want to do X, and if you try to do Y, you're going to have to drag it kicking and screaming down that path.

I tend to be that guy. It drives me nuts because I want to like the easy to use stuff, but it usually just doesn't work for me.

I think Macs are great. They just work. :-)

But I use all kinds of PCs. My work PC is (still) Windows XP. My laptop is Windows 7, but it dual boots OpenSUSE Linux (and that's where I spend all my time). And we have an iMac.

This is our second iMac - the first one we got in Dec, 2004. We finally gave it to a friend last year and it's still running strong (last we heard).

The only thing I don't like about the iMac is the little, tiny keyboard that comes with it.

Now, to the myth that PCs are just as virus-protected as Macs. Bah. A PC has to have virus protection. Macs are based on UNIX (a far more secure OS) and I've never run virus protection on my Mac (I don't even really know if I'm supposed to). Maybe it's just built in. I don't run virus protection on my Linux laptop either.

I had to *know* to put protection on my Windows boxes (and I refuse to pay for it - I use AVG or Avira, which are both great).

So, in contrast to the Mac, I spent nearly a week locked in mortal combat recently with a slate of EVIL viruses and infections on my future son in law's PC (Windows Vista). His virus software had expired and he didn't realize.

Man, that laptop was full of malware. A lot of it was posing as virus protection software, wanting him to click on it to steal his credit card (he was smart enough not to).

Again - nearly a week. And I have a computer science degree and am pretty savvy. I had to pull out all the stops, utilizing the minutae of combat you find on sites such as hijackthis.com to figure out how to wrest control of the laptop back from the malware. I finally won.

For that reason alone, PCs are awful. I can't tell you how many people i've known who's computers get completely hosed by malware who just put up with it. Meanwhile, the Mac we have (and my son's macbook, which he's been running for three years) just run great.

The myth is that all the viruses are directed at Windows because it has market share. That was sort of believable a few years ago. Not anymore - Macs are everywhere and they are still safe. The truth is that Bill Gate's OS leaks like a sieve. :-)

(and, again, I use all OSs. I like Windows fine if it's protected. It just torques me off that it doesn't come protected, unless you buy the bloatware virus protection (Norton, etc) that comes installed but wants more of your money).

Oh, another thing that's awful about PCs - the registry. Don't get me started :-)

Bird - you do have a point that for an experienced PC user Macs can be frustrating. Sometimes Macs try to make ti too simple. I've had some frustrating moments, but most of that is due to my legacy as a PC user. Install by dragging into the applications folder? What? Too easy :-)

"The reason I directed my mo-in-law toward a Mac was she doesn't know beans about updating virus software and, consequently, her last Windows XP lapper got infected like a mutha'. We hired a geek to try and resurrect it, but no such luck. In the end I said, "Buy a new laptop, and unfortunately you're going to have to pony up twice as much money for a Mac." Well not exactly in those words. :-)"

Bird, doesn't this just make my point for me? :-) You had to actually replace a perfectly good laptop because the OS is a malware-magnet. And you're OK with that?

Also, why didn't you just run the recovery to get it back to factory settings, and then put good virus software on it, and reload? Why did you let the virus win? Nevah!!!! Never give in! You need to reach into that virus's chest and pull it's still-beating heart out so you can show it how black it is before it dies!!!



That's my philosophy, at least.

"Macs have, what, 15 percent market share? It makes sense to me that based on mere numbers, the hackers would concentrate most of their nefarious efforts on our poor Windows boxes. :-("

Hackers concentrate on Windows because (and Windows-philes never believe me on this, but I'll try again) it's very easy to hack.

Look, most hackers are both evil AND stupid, pimply-faced dateless gothic nerds who have nothing better to do than make your mother in law's life miserable. It takes a lot of skill, true skill, to hack a UNIX-based OS. To hack windows, not so much. I'm not saying market share doesn't have anything to do with it. But the "sweet spot" for hackers is a windows box one year after purchase when Norton has expired and the user either doesn't realize it or doesn't want to drop another fifty bucks (or whatever it is) to re-up.

Ugh. That hasn't happened in my experience with any of the Macs or Linux machines I've been around. I'm not saying it's impossible to hack a Mac, just saying it's not easy. Because the OS is a lot more bullet-proof.

I'm not saying that Microsoft machines don't have their blatant weaknesses. All I'm saying is I detest Macs. :-)

- They cost twice as much as a Windows machine.
- Their software is limited.
- They're confusing to use.

Since I know how to update anti-virus software, I have no problem with Windows PC's. In fact, I think they're great. But if you're someone who doesn't know jack about that, then I think a Mac is a good investment (to avoid the headaches of getting an infected machine). So they're a necessary evil for some people.

I am most certainly *not* a genius, especially not so in the area of tech. And PC's still frustrate me. Where is this? Where is that? How do I make *this* do *that*?

There was a little learning curve in figuring out where common things were on the Mac, but my favorite thing is that I don't have to be smart to use it. As Bill said, "It just works." I need that. Downloading files has never been difficult. Double click and *bam*.

Becky has gotten frustrated going from iPhoto uploads/maintenance to her sister's Dell laptop photo program. There are 3 times as many hoops to upload and access photos on the PC as on her MacBook. Difficult to organize them, find them, etc.

Our experience as computer *un*savvy people is that Macs help us use computers in intuitive ways. In 3 years, I have not had a single "want to throw my computer through a window" experience as was a weekly experience when we owned PCs. And when I go to use my parents' or in-laws' 'puters, I get frustrated quickly by how slow and cumbersome and convoluted they are to use. Sounds like there's gears shifting inside.

You should let me take care of it :-).

How, O how, does one un-choose "email me whenever someone comments on this thread"?

Jez (and Bird too)

One thing I want to clarify: I like Mac's fine, and think they are a lot better than WinD'ohs machines.

That being said, I think that both Apple and Google are, fundamentally, evil. :-) - Just kidding, sort of, but I think that both would gladly become "benevolent" world dictators if they could.

The scary thing, especially about Google, is they probably could. They know everything about everything. They have the goods on everybody. That knowledge is worth a lot and could be converted into power.

And I'm not a conspiracy theorist.

Microsoft is also evil, but in a more benign way, as they aren't competent enough to truly become an Evil Overlord.

(and, yes, Apple does like you to do things its way. Your best bet is to go with open source Linux)

Bird - As if you had special ordered this:

Check out this blog post today on ZDNet about Apple's increasing Malware problem.

Malware: It's not just for PCs anymore.

The real danger is that Mac fanboys and all the grandmas and mothers-in-law who have Macs and believe the nonsense (and yes it is nonsense as there was a totally non-partisan lab experiment a couple years ago with 3 naked machines set up for hackers to try to gain root access (one was a linux box, one a mac, and one a vista pc) the hackers gained access to the mac in less than a minute and it took less than 10 minutes for the other two but much longer than the mac nonetheless)(I don't have the link to the article that verified this but it was a computer mag/website that was not a shill for MS or Apple) that Apple machines/os is inherently secure will be wiped out by a hacker/virus/trojan in the not too distant future and they will be totally unprepared. (how is that for a massively runon sentence?) I tell this to all the mac-heads I know and they just poopoo it and they will be the ones to be crying when it happens and it will. iPhone viruses were the first out there (yes because of market share) but now they are attacking Android phones. (windows phones had viruses that were simply ported over from the desktop os mess and have only continued unabated) (but windows phones are almost dead anyway). That is my story (I have been in the IT industry for 31 years) and I am sticking to it.

re my post above: It's the browser. Windows fell victim in the 2000's mostly due to IE, not the OS itself.
IE *loves* to run ActiveX, so every hacker with a clue wrote hostile AX objects and loaded up pages with them.
When Windows ran the browser with full privs, AX could own the platform. Game over.

Linux is the only serious proposition if you want a machine that's consistently "on your side." It has its problems, but at least the solutions look like you're passing reasonable instructions to a machine, not like you're trying to calm a psychologically disturbed horse (that's the metaphor that always haunts me whenever I have to troubleshoot windows).

The nerd cloud is thick in here.

Quaid beat me to the punch about the Mac Defender article, but here are two follow ups as well.
http://www.pcworld.com/article/228183/mac_malware_brouhaha_are_apple_users_no_longer_safe.html#tk.nl_spx_h_crawl

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/bott/apple-to-support-reps-do-not-attempt-to-remove-malware/3362?tag=nl.e539

Which bring up some questionable methods for Apple. While I personally use Windows computers, for those of you that use Macs don't drink the Kool-Aid. You aren't safe either. The only way to be safe is to be totally disconnected to the internet. Oh, and that includes you too linux fans. The only reasons linux is "more safe" is because one, it has the same Unix core that is fundamentaly safer as an OS, but two, and more importantly, it users are predominantly an educated bunch of computer users who don't get themselves into trouble in the first place.

PS And don't even get me started on the best browser... (not Firefox, Safari, Opera, or IE.)

PS And don't even get me started on the best browser... (not Firefox, Safari, Opera, or IE.)

David,

I'd like to know what you think here - fill me in!

Looks like maxthon's mostly a repackaged chrome.

"The only way to be safe is to be totally disconnected to the internet."
That's why my music computer is never connected, I also don't install anything else on it (no office, for example).

"it users are predominantly an educated bunch of computer users who don't get themselves into trouble in the first place."
Maybe a little, but while I do occasionally allow need to clean malware off a windows machine that I've allowed to become infected, I haven't on any of my linux machines. I realise I'm only one data point.

As has been said before, these days the important exploits are internet-based and don't care about what operating system you're running. If I were a hacker, I'd rather take control of your credit card than your laptop.

I once was a big fan of the IE based Maxthon, but I haven't used it in a few years. I grew frustrated with the lack of Google toolbar support and the general quirky nature of the community that supported it.

Maxthon 2 is pretty old at this point, isn't it? Does it still work over top if newer versions of IE?

I just read an article by John Dvorak about this very subject and here is a snippet:
"PC users will be laughing out loud as this continues because this is just the beginning. The types of people who rejoice in this sort of vandalism just love it when targeted companies attempt counter-measures. It perks them up. While the PC users have literally endured decades of this sort of game playing, Mac users have rarely seen any of it. They have no idea what they are in for.

This also makes you ask yourself exactly how well protected smartphones are against attacks like this? You can be sure that the iPhone and iPad are going to be next on the hit list.

It's my opinion that these new malware attacks are the result of two things. One is the recent success and stock price of Apple which garners a lot of attention. But more importantly, the other reason is the never-ending bravado of the company and the users of its machines. Let's face it; Apple users out-and-out brag about how their machines are safer and less prone to this sort of attack. The word "gloat" comes to mind.

That said, many in the PC world have warned Apple that its OS is not any more secure than a Windows OS. And because there is no security infrastructure with scads of anti-malware systems available, the systems are actually more vulnerable.

I'm actually surprised this sort of attack hasn't happened sooner. The malware affects the price of the stock, sales of the machines, reputation, etc, which are just the sort of thing people like to attack nowadays.

So we'll see how this situation plays out, but one thing is for certain: the happy-go-lucky Mac owners will end up grumbling about it the same way PC users have done over the years. And this "What? Me worry?" attitude and smug smile will forever disappear. That's the good news, as far as I'm concerned. The bad news is the refuge is gone forever. You can be sure Linux isn't any safer either." Don't know your opinion of Dvorak or the fact that it was written for a pc-centric magazine but here is the link:

Sorry, that I am still ragging on about this, but I have had so many gentlemen's arguments about this issue with MacHeads and one thing just really bugs the crap out of me: no matter what, MacHeads will not admit to problems with Macs. However, I just read my electronic version of PC Magazine and they just had their annual Reliability and Satisfaction survey and here is a snippet of the article:
"Once again, Apple’s ratings are in their own league despite the fact that 15 percent of the Apple notebooks in PC Magazine’s annual survey needed repairs within the last 12 months. That’s significantly worse than the industry average, and it’s a higher rate of repair than everyone but Alienware (21 percent), Dell (19 percent), and Gateway (16 percent). Nine brands had better repair rates; three were even down into the single digits: Samsung (5 percent), Asus (9 percent), and Acer (9 percent).
Not surprisingly, respondents who needed repairs within the last year are not as happy as those who didn’t. What is impressive, though, is that respondents don’t hold the reliability issues against Apple the way they do against other brands. The difference in average overall rating between Apple users who didn’t need repairs and those who did was only 0.4 (9.2 versus 8.8). The difference in reliability rating is only 0.9 (9.4 versus 8.5). By contrast, no other company had an overall repair rating difference of less than 1.1 and a reliability rating of 1.6. (This comparison is only among brands that had at least 50 units needing repairs.)…
Apple has a way of rewriting old maxims. For instance, “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” becomes, “If it’s broke, we really, really like our MacBooks”."
That attitude is what really sticks in my craw. Sorry again.

Oh, also - just so I'm not misunderstood. I'm not saying that Macs aren't vulnerable to malware, or that it never happens. Of course it does. But it's just harder to hack a Mac and the stupid, evil gollums of the Malware world are too enamored with their favorite target: leaky, insecure Windoze. Because the Unix kernel is, inherently, more secure that Windows OS.

Thanks Gary. That's a good caution. Earlier in the thread I described having to spend a large number of hours de-lousing a Windows laptop, and the major offender was one of those user-invoked malwares ("Vista Defender 2011") which had pretty much taken over the machine. So I know what you're referring to. I think what you've said here is, for the most part, spot on.

I do have a few observations and quibbles to make, although I know we've already beat this to death :-)

So I doubt there'll ever be a day when someone sees a Mac, Linux, or Windows that's chock full of malware (excepting the legacy "Junk malware" we see collected by Windows machines).

The Junk malware is still, today, the biggest nuisance. It positively kills computers. As you've probably noticed if you've read this thread, that's a major peeve of mine, how an OS that's been around as long as Windows still is such a sponge for this stuff.

Look at the recent fake-antivirus that ran rampant until MacOS had to adapt for it. It worked not because there was an exposed attack surface on the OS, it worked because the users were willing to run it.

I did hear of that. I didn't experience it and don't know anyone who did, but I agree that part of the battle is helping people understand to never click on an unsolicited pop-up, etc. And the malware creeps are getting better at making the "alerts" that pop up appear to be part of the OS.

So please, stop focusing on how attack resistant is this or that OS.

Well, I can't :-) - I still hear people complaining about how slow their Windows machine has become (my sister, for instance, just last weekend - McAfee wasn't even able to protect the machine). I still do *not* hear that from Mac and Linux users.

The game has changed.

Perhaps. As I said earlier, I've been hearing that any day now Macs and Linux boxes are going to be overwhelmed.

Childhood's over, the attackers are organized, and very smart, and to presume them inept is a serious error.

They are still stupid and evil :-)

Just kidding. I know what you mean. However, I think over-estimating them is an error too. Really, really good programmers don't need to be criminals to make a lot of $$$. Plus, how good do you think you have to be as a software developer to, for instance, be on the Mac OS development team? You think any of those guys are having to supplement their income working for sleazy malware vendors? And how focused are they on protecting their (to this point, sterling) reputation as a secure OS? I think there are big guns in this battle, and most of them are being wielded by the good guys.

When will we see the great equalization between Windows, Macs and Linux? Here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to create a post today, and date it so that it won't appear until this time next year. At that time, we'll see what's changed. If Mac OS, iPads, iPhones, and most popular linuxes are overrun (as has been predicted by many here) to the extent that we've seen Windows overrun, I will be the first to pronounce I was wrong.

Finally - to reiterate, I have some quibbles, but I think the main point of your comment was a good one.

G. Frederick - Too me, the fact that so many Mac users still love their macs and are highly satisfied even though reliability is below average is one of the reasons I do admire Apple. Look above, I'm no fan boy, but Apple understands that their brand is much bigger than any one stat, like reliability, and in fact is bigger than their products. It's everything from the buying experience to the store, the staff, the packaging, the set up, the instructions, the software, the UI, the materials used, the design, the look and feel and on and on.

People tend to form relationships with their products, emotional connections, and more so the more money and time they have invested in them. It's like a friendship. Every step along the way either makes the product, and by extension the company, a closer companion or a frustration. The attention Apple gives to every step shows that it knows this and knows that if the majority of those interactions are positive, the relation they develop will be strong enough to overcome mistakes in one or two areas.

So, when folks overlook reliability issues with their Mac, it's because the buying, setup, daily use, look and feel and more were so good that they see their Mac as a trusted friend who takes care of them, and just as they would with a real friend, they can overlook this failing.

So, by taking care at every step along the way, they're developing good will to cover them when they do mess up.

There are few brands that understand this as well as Apple. Honda is another.

Salguod - my preceding comment doesn't take away from your point, however. Apple is fantastic at doing all the things you described. The best.

I still think their commercials are creepy (except for the old Mac vs PC ones, which were hilarious).

As one who does my own mechanical work, on cars, and on computers, I thought the following observation may be useful:
Honda's are, IMO, built in the Japanese style of high-quality, solid engineering, and executed using precise machining. They come apart (for service) as easily as if they had been assembled last week. (Toyotas are, or at least used to be - it's been a while since I wrenched on one, very similar.)
However having been inside a MacBook recently, I can't say their apparent quality is more than skin deep. As a machine, it seems they put everything into the external appearance (e.g. machined screw heads) but not into the internal components (e.g. keyboard mechanics). So they look great, and maybe the usability is high, but as far as physical quality goes I had to surmise they intend to rely on their service policies to keep people happy, since the device did not appear to be very solidly built inside. Since I'd prefer to rely on the soundness of what I hold, rather than on someone else's support, I choose not to spend extra for Apple gear.
Honda, however seems to build cars that normally don't need the attention of a wrench, so I believe their cost differential is justified.
Just one person's mechanical observation, worth $0.02, your mileage may vary. ;-)

The power doors were troublesome too. My '99 was the first year, so it was worse. There's a couple of things you can do to improve the door operation. Clean the contacts on the door and door jamb with very, very, very light pressure with fine sand paper is one. You just want to get the oxidation off, that's it. There's a reset procedure where you hold the door switch on the dash through a complete open cycle then again through close, or something. I think that's in the owner's manual. Lastly, I think you pull fuse #13 in the passenger side fuse box under the dash to reset things, don't remember for sure. One of those usually set my doors right when they started acting flaky.

Visit www.odyclub.com, lots of good people & info there.