I'd be especially interested in the thoughts of any of you 20-somethings who are currently not in church.

My thoughts?

Yes, please.

Yes, please what?

I like older music. My church does 90% contemporary. Our worship team looks like a CCM rock band. Most everyone there, from kids to middle aged, seem to like it.

Not 20-something, but I clearly remember how I felt about church during those years. My early 20s were spent *anywhere* but church.

"Cool" music didn't bring me back. Full credit goes to the Holy Spirit.

I agree that "contemporary" worship is old. It hovers around 1985 and still wears leg-warmers. But it doesn't keep people away or keep them coming. The Holy Spirit is stronger than a doofy electric piano.

I wonder if

--those he talked to are fully transparent about their motives. Would they consider it shallow to be attracted to the music?

--explanations about what attracted those who have already come back to church tell us anything about how to attract those who haven't come back.

--perhaps the people who are in church would've come back anyway. How much can we say what they're doing is working vs. they couldn't have kept those people out if they tried? I know I have that feeling about a lot of churches I've been to-- even when they're growing, it's not because they're doing anything special, but more that the area is growing, etc.

My old college pastor used to say that people stayed in church because of relationships. My guess is that's mostly true.

I do think that those who are not in the church, but are receptive to coming back (and let's be honest-- it's mostly coming back that we're talking about, because where most of us lived, the concept of someone who is truly un-churched is very foreign) are searching for some depth to their lives-- in teaching, relationships, and worship.

my thoughts, beginning in college, are that a maturing believer will recognize teaching and people as priorities over musical style. this probably varies with where you live, but solid teaching and loving people can be found at lots of churches, but music/service styles are what really separate them from each other.

it's great when the biggest complaint someone has about church is the style of music. it's also REALLY sad that it's even something to complain about.

i think what draws 20 somethings to churches is, for the most part, other 20 somethings. community. that's why many have left our church over the years (singles mainly), to go where they can find a community of peers.

Maybe we should define "contemporary." If it's a "praise team" and a big band singing "Celebrate Jesus" or whatever, that's the sort of contemporary that's not contemporary any more. It's old.

Do we consider, like, Passion stuff contemporary? It is, time-wise. Genre-wise I don't know what we'd call it.
I prefer music style that is of the times with lyrical content that is theo-centric, perhaps hymnodic.

I actually think music is an important factor when people pick a church, but it is overstated and overused, and it is becoming clear that "attractional worship" is/was wrongheaded. Even Sally Morgenthaler says she was wrong these days.
---

"Yes, please" to focusing on the Gospel.
:-)

"I clearly remember how I felt about church during those years. My early 20s were spent *anywhere* but church."

Mopsy, were you in church before you turned 20? Also, what was it that kept you away in your 20s?

"i think what draws 20 somethings to churches is, for the most part, other 20 somethings. community. that's why many have left our church over the years (singles mainly), to go where they can find a community of peers."

Stroke, I agree with you. Sometime I'll need to tell you about the conversation we had in the last 10 minutes of GAP sunday.

But, question: you've seen a lot of students graduate. Are they really going elsewhere (I'm assuming you mean other church communities), or are they just out of church? Based on your experience, how well are we doing?

But, question: you've seen a lot of students graduate. Are they really going elsewhere (I'm assuming you mean other church communities), or are they just out of church?

I have been involved in church long enough to see people graduate and move on to "life." The church I went to before I moved had a large (1000+) college ministry, and a small (less than 200) young singles/couples ministry. Some college students went into missions, some moved on to other churches/other cities, but a huge chunk just left church.

The problem was that they weren't prepared for real life. Churches with large college ministries become too college-centric. Having a quiet time when you can roll out of bed at 10:00 am, be at class at noon, get done with classes at 3:00, and have the rest of the day to yourself is hugely different than when you have to get up at 6:00 just to rush to work by 8:00, work till 6:00, come home exhausted, etc. I saw so many people struggle once they got that first job, and then disappear from church. Heck - it was hard for me. The only thing that kept me plugging away was that I had to work in college, and I made it my goal to prepare my life to be ready for a full time job someday - not just academically, but spiritually, relationally, and physically (sleep schedule) too.

I also love to study ethnomusicology, and the whole point of that is that people need a worship style that speaks to their heart (as long as it is Gospel-centric). Acoustic folk worship puts me to sleep (if I am not engaging with God in worship), just like acoustic folk music in general does. Worship style should not be as central as some make it, but you also don't want to have to try so hard to ignore the style just to connect with God. It's a hard balance to hit, so we all have to flex some, too.

Appreciate the post, both the original one and here. To add my $0.02 (which may well be all it's worth), in my experience, with most younger folks, music isn't an issue for its own sake, but what does matter is the gesture. One, is this church willing to try to make room for 20-somethings in its worship? (Which is not just a matter of choice of music, it must be noted.) And two, does this church have a clue how to do so? (After all, as mopsy and Jared have already noted, so-called "contemporary" worship is often just Boomer Jazzercise with Jesus lyrics.)

I happened to work for a bit in a classic Boomer church, a Willow-model plant from around 1990, in which the pastor, my friend and mentor, suddenly woke up (with some prodding from me and a friend of mine) to the emerging church, the return of interest in liturgy and hymnody among a lot of younger folks, and the like; when I introduced him to Stan Grenz, who was one of my favorite profs at Regent, he wound up something of a disciple of Stan's, even visiting him at his condo (which wasn't far from our church--we had several members in the neighborhood). The result? Significant resistance from the Boomers who had been the original core of the church (some of whom left), Dave is now elsewhere, the church is back the way it was before he started introducing new ideas . . . and a congregation which had been stable is now shrinking. Not, I think, because the stylistic things mattered so much in themselves, but because the whole sequence of events sent a signal to the younger members of the church, and to younger folks in the community, that the leadership of that church wasn't interested in making room for them.

Being CoC clearly the cool music didn’t bring me back. We do mix the old stuff and the new stuff with a touch of fluff. I wasn’t actually raised in a church, my parents stopped taking me at a young age. In junior high and high school my brother, sister, and I started going with other kids our age without parents. They did join in later. I fell away from church for many years then when I moved back to Tulsa I started going again, not for the music for God. I ached for Him.

De, the ancient and fully churched one:

I barely went to church from the ages of 16 to 25. My childhood church split for completely valid reasons. I resented my mom for taking me away from the relationships (someone touched on this) I had formed there. I realize she was right, and I sort of knew it at the time, but I was angry. I didn't know anyone at the new church and didn't care to start from scratch.

I also had a lot of pride. I thought I didn't need church. I still believed in God, but I didn't understand the purpose of congregation (the verb) or fellowship.

My church attendance was limited to holidays, weddings, and funerals. It wasn't until I married and had my first child when I realized the Holy Spirit was after me, big time, to return for good.

I wrote my testimony here, if you have a chunk of time: http://www.lifenut.com/blog/?p=713

It's ridiculously long. But I think it explains where I came from and why I came back. Music had nothing to do with it, at all.

I do agree that churches could do a better job investing in the 20something crowd---especially those who are single and/or childless. Who else has the time, energy, and fresh perspective? If 20somethings are there, pounce on them, put them to work, involve them. They will bring their friends. Don't patronize them by trying to speak their language. When I was younger, we called people or institutions that tried too hard "posers".

But, question: you've seen a lot of students graduate. Are they really going elsewhere (I'm assuming you mean other church communities), or are they just out of church? Based on your experience, how well are we doing?

i was referring more to college graduate singles since i've graduated, not college kids. it's tough, because that's my demo, but i haven't been able to plug in and lead out there due to student ministry. but in the 6 years since i've graduated, i've seen people with great potential to lead out in that ministry go elsewhere to more established groups.

oh, and the majority of high school graduates from here do drop out of church, but there is also a good number of students who "get it" and find good churches at school, realizing the importance of plugging in rather than tapping their foot.

de, i'd love to hear about the GAP conversation. i hope it's good! maybe in some of my non-teaching weeks i can even visit the class!

"but in the 6 years since i've graduated, i've seen people with great potential to lead out in that ministry go elsewhere to more established groups."

Man! Could you give them the memo that Jill and I could really, really use them in the GAP?! Appeal to their pioneer spirit.

"de, i'd love to hear about the GAP conversation. i hope it's good! maybe in some of my non-teaching weeks i can even visit the class!"

That would be awesome!

I can feed you a bit of the convo here. We were talking about Jesus' teaching on divorce. We noted that in many churches, the teaching is completely ignored, and someone then noted that in others divorced people are treated as second class citizens forever (I'm not here to debate that) . . . Then, I waited for the other shoe to drop. It took about 2 tenths of a second for someone else to say "Like singles".

The only major demo at our church to not have full time pastoral attention is the singles. The group that has been shoved off-campus for Sunday morning bible study longer than any other group - the singles. And on and on.

They have a point.

Side note, De, and not to go too far OT, but have you read the cover article in the latest CT on divorce? It's by a chap named David Instone-Brewer, a scholar in rabbinics and the NT at Tyndale House, Cambridge, who's essentially arguing that Jesus' teaching (and Paul's) looks rather different in the context of the rabbinic teaching of his time. You ought to check it out.

I like the hymns. I go to a church where we mostly do "contemporary" music. I used to go to a church where I felt that they were so obsessed with trying the new styles that it was a concert.

the bsm here at UTA has a Bible study tuesday nights. when the band does contemporary, its nice. but when they do the hymns (with electric guitars etc), its like everyone collectively falls on their face before God in contrition and adoration. and its a big group: 200-300.

But I think I'm going to side with the majority here and say music doesn't really matter. Its definitely the relationships (and I definitely feel like a second class christian because I'm single and don't even have a boyfriend (what's wrong with me?)). Nowadays, I don't even care if it sounds good, so long as its doctrinally-sound.

I agree with Stroke that what 20-somethings want is authentic community grounded and growing in the gospel and putting it into practice. Actually I think that's what most people want.

The question of whether 20-somethings want "contemporary music" and the observation of some in the thread that Christian contemporary music often seems still stuck in the 80's reminded me of this quote from Rob Bell:

BELL: This idea that Church waits to see what the culture is doing then produces a D grade version with some sort of clever Jesus twist to me is utter blasphemy . . . That seems absolutely anemic.

[Interviewer]: Welcome to our world.

BELL: I don't believe in Christian art or music. The word Christian was originally a noun. A person, not an adjective. I believe in great art. If you are an artist, your job is to do great art and you don't need to tack on the word Christian. It's already great. God is the God of Creativity. It's either great art or it isn't. Followers of Jesus should have the first word instead of coming late to the game with some poor quality spin-off. Let's talk about things before everyone else.

And another quote from Bell about church and community:

BELL: We say, "This isn't the church, this is a church service. It's just an hour where we have some teaching, some singing and you'll hear about things in the community." If there are 43 "one anothers" in the New Testament—serve one another, carry one another's burden's, confess to one another—you can only do a couple of those in a church service. Until you have a community that you are journeying with, please don't say you are a part of this church. You just come to a gathering. We are very intentional about that. The question is, "Who do you call when your brother ODs on cocaine? If your mom is in the hospital, who comes and sits in the waiting room with you? When you cannot pay your rent, who do you go to and say please help me out?" That's your church.

Regardless of what you think about Bell's overall theology, I think he makes some valid points here.

I would agree (I know very little about his overall theology, of course).

Especially about what he said about the church.

I do run into questions about the art thing. Partially because I'm not sure who's producing quality art anywhere these days. I'm not sure that it's so much "art by Christians is a sad knock-off" versus "art by non-Christians is a good original". Is there much originality anywhere? I say this in relation to music, for instance - Christianity at least can point to the unique genre of the great hymns of the church (relatively recent phenomenon, actually) and even some modern praise and worship is unique in its genre.

The pop stuff isn't unique, of course - but it's not like there's that much originality out there anyway.

What originality I've seen in the mainstream has been little indie bands (bands using unique instrument mixes, for instance) and I've seen similar in the Christian indie - it just is very hard to find!

I'm rambling. Gotta go! Appreciate any thoughts.

The quote from Bell reminds me of this line from W. H. Auden: "There is no such thing as 'Christian culture.' Culture is Caesar's thing."

I agree with De, certainly, that good art isn't all that common; it's Sturgeon's Law ("90% of science fiction is crap; but then, 90% of everything is crap"). Where Bell's going, I think, is where Flannery O'Connor went, to Aquinas' assertion that "art is wholly concerned with the good of that which is made," because (in O'Connor's words) "what is good in itself glorifies God because it reflects God."

That's really where I come down when it comes to planning worship--and it's a lot of what I've been telling churches as I'm searching for a new call: as a pastor, as a worship leader, I don't want to have to be about style. I want to be about what is good and fitting, and whatever that might be, that's what I want to use in putting the service together, whether it be the oldest hymn in the hymnal or the newest Matt Redman song on the radio, or for that matter, drama, dance, sculpture, or painting. If it's the best thing available to focus the worshipers (myself included) on God and who he is and what he wants us to understand this Sunday, then that's what I want to use, and I really don't want any other considerations getting in the way of that.

And in that assertion, I don't think I'm all that unusual.

De - you hit on a good point that I am always trying to make..... It's not that Christian bands, artists, etc are putting out so much junk - it's that the music and art industry in general is putting out so much low quality stuff. It's quick and easy to do, and they can trick the mindless masses into buying large numbers of it. People in the church want a Christian version of it, so the Christian industry just gives them what they want. It wouldn't be out there if it didn't sell!

Lauren - I don't know if by UTA you mean UT Arlington, but that tripped me out when I saw that - I work there. It's a big place, so that doesn't mean anything, but I just never thought I would see it mentioned on The Thinklings. Weird.

woah! no way! I totally meant UT arlington. that is so weird. what church do you go to?

I agree that lots of secular art and music is low grade junk. I think those like Rob Bell, Flannery O'Connor, Madeleing L'Engle, Mark Heard or Kenneth Myers who have decried the state (or challenged the concept) of "Christian" art, literature and music would agree too. But they'd say that doesn't make it ok for Christians to churn out low quality work just because lots of secular artists do, or to simply ape what's selling in the secular marketplace. "Giving them what they want" may be a good way to make a buck but it isn't necessarily a good way to edify a soul. The whole idea of there being a "Christian industry" raises all kinds of questions too, doesn't it?

The point goes beyond genre and debates over hymns vs. praise songs. It has to do with excellence, honesty and artistic integrity. C.S. Lewis couldn't stand most of the hymns sung in his Anglican church - called them "4th rate poems set to 5th rate music." But of course, Lewis wisely reminded himself (and us) of the danger of letting his highbrow pride slip in, noting that the hymns he scorned were being sung by an old cleaning-lady "in elastic side-boots" in the pew next to him with great feeling and devotion, and realized he wasn't worthy to clean those boots. I try to remember that on days when I don't like the music our praise team is singing.

Thanks Karl. Man! There's a post I need to write and you keep reminding me to do it. But I'm not sure I can do it justice.

By the way, I give a lot more creedence to the opinions of Flannery O'Connor, L'Engle, and those of their accomplishments versus modern contemporary critics, who are a dime a dozen.

Lots of questions do get raised, yes. I don't know the answers, though. Generally this devolves into people claiming that the answer to my appreciation of low Christian art is for me to listen to U2 and Switchfoot and, and, and . . . all the other great bands that are not Christian but have Christians in them. :-)

Who is putting out quality and inspired sculpture or painting these days? Serious and sincere question.

I have a theory as to why there is a lot of low Christian art. I may post on that. Your comment about C.S. Lewis was such a great reminder (and it threw me for a loop, because isn't it kind of contra your point? I'm just wondering, not trying to be all "gotcha"). He was a true artist, a genius, really, and yet he could speak to the common man and - more importantly and far more rare - he could appreciate the common man.

Hey, cool. This post just made the 90 day top ten in the sidebar.

Part of the problem is that our contemporary Western culture undermines and corrodes true art. Jeremy Begbie talks about this, or at any rate some of the ways in which that's true, in the latest Books & Culture (focusing specifically on music), and has some really valuable things to say (as he always does). It seems to me the church in other parts of the world is having more success creating real art than the American church, and I think our cultural context is part of the reason for that.

One guy who has to be an exception to that, btw--and I've never even seen his paintings, but from the way he wrote about Leonardo's Last Supper, he just has to be--is Makoto Fujimura, who works in New York. If I ever manage to get back out there, I definitely want to see some of his work.

De you are right, there is a way in which Lewis' words are a needed corrective to what I was saying. But I am not sure they are totally incompatible.

This is a question I too wrestle with, and I have sympathies with both sides. Lewis convicts and moves me. But I do think there is merit in what some critics of contemporary worship have to say. Popular culture isn't always value-neutral. Not just the content, but even the form can sometimes encourage or promote habits of mind and thought that are less than the highest we are called to be. Ken Myers has written well on this. I'll see if I can find what he said and post it, along with a few other thoughts, in the thread above.

I just say former because, well, I'll explain.....

I can say that it pretty much was the Church that made me give up on art. I used to paint and draw a lot of stuff. But I noticed that the junk I created got as much praise from people as the stuff I thought was decent. I still remember a roommate praising a painting of mine that earned me an 'F' in class (I was working on getting a degree in Education to teach Art or Science). It goes the same for musicians, preachers, anyone that performs in some way - in some church circles, people are afraid to give an honest opinion, because they are afraid of "judging." It just doesn't help us propel our art to the next level if we don't get decent criticism. I can think of a Christian band here in DFW that really isn't that good. Everyone states that when they are not around, but their friends won't tell them - and even go to concerts to show support for this band's "calling."

(De, if someone put U2 and Switchfoot in the same category.... I could nearly pass out from shock....)

"(De, if someone put U2 and Switchfoot in the same category.... I could nearly pass out from shock....)"

Happens all the time. . . often POD is thrown in there as well. Usually in the context of "don't listen to CCM. If you want Christian content in your songs, there's plenty of it out there. Just listen to U2. And, um, Switchfoot! Or P.O.D.! Or . . . um . . ."

"I can say that it pretty much was the Church that made me give up on art. I used to paint and draw a lot of stuff. But I noticed that the junk I created got as much praise from people as the stuff I thought was decent."

Has it ever occurred to you that most of us wouldn't know good art from bad if it punched us in the face?

I can't get the connection between your art-less roommate and other kindhearted people and the Church. Seriousl question: if you were gifted in art, by God, why have you dropped it? Shouldn't you do it, no matter who praises you or disparages you?

On the other hand, if he's actually gifted in art, would he have gotten Fs? (Serious question.)

Has it ever occurred to you that most of us wouldn't know good art from bad if it punched us in the face?

Which lends a certain piquant irony to the conversation in these two threads, doesn't it? :)

Well, if everyone is praising it, even if it it's not good - how can one tell if they have a true God-given gift? What if our ego is getting in the way? Doing painting for yourself is one thing - there is therapeutic value in that - but why should I put it out there to be consumed by others if there really is not a gift? Artists are sometimes their own worst critic, so we have to rely on the honest opinions of others to guide us, or we'll end up as some poor self-depressed modern artist with one ear :)

Or, look at it this way: if they are going to lie to this musician I know of, and tell him he is good to his face, and then agree with me when I say he's not really that good - how I do I know that they are telling me the truth if they say I have a gift? This musician is convinced that he has a God-given gift. I would disagree. His lack of popularity outside of his circle of friends, and his lack of record contract even, would possibly agree with me. Others would agree with me on him, too. Maybe he does have a gift and he just doesn't meet my tastes. Maybe I am in the wrong. But why won't people just tell him to his face what they really think? I'm all for being kind-hearted - but a lie is a lie. The connection between my roommate and other people is that I have caught them all in this lie - and have gotten them to admit it later. ("Dude - I got an F on this - it totally sucks!" "Well, yeah, but I just wanted to be nice")

It's impossible to exist as an artist, or even as a Christian, in a vacuum without the help and support, and - sometimes - honest criticism from others in the body. If I was left to discover my own God-given gifts on my own, without the help of others - I would still be sadly lost (in that area).

What does it take to be gifted anyway? What does that mean? The people that created cave drawings might have been the gifted people of their time - or the prisoners that just doodled on the walls to pass time. We have no way of knowing - "talent" is so subjective.

These are all questions you ask yourself as an artist. I'm not saying they are right or wrong or that they even have an answer - they are just all things you have to wrestle with.

It's pretty unfair of me to say that the church made me do anything. People freak out when you say stuff like that, so let me re-phrase that: I decided not to pursue the whole Christian artist path. It was a complex decision, based on many factors, but it is ultimately not my calling in life at this point to make art for the church. The door was actually open for me to do just that, and I could have easily walked through it. But it wasn't my calling.

Disparaging I could handle (if I had ever faced it), but false praise does more damage than people realize. I'm all for heaping encouragement on people - but at least make sure you are still being honest when you are doing it.

On the other hand, if he's actually gifted in art, would he have gotten Fs? (Serious question.)

Actually, I ended up with a 3.9 GPA in my art classes overall. All artists get Fs on some artwork - since you do like 500 per class.

Crossbow

Thanks for sharing this stuff. I guess the only other question I'd have is did you ask the opinions of your fellow artists, or just your Christian friends?

If someone spent hours painting a picture and then asked me if I thought it was good art . . . well, I hope I'd be honest, but it's a funky position for me to be in since I don't know much about painting.

"I'm all for heaping encouragement on people - but at least make sure you are still being honest when you are doing it."

I completely agree.

We should always be honest.

"Which lends a certain piquant irony to the conversation in these two threads, doesn't it? :)"

Definitely!

But, keep in mind, I didn't write either of these posts as a showcase for my artistic acumen. Wasn't on my mind at all.

But the original points are long lost at this point . . .

Actually, I ended up with a 3.9 GPA in my art classes overall. All artists get Fs on some artwork - since you do like 500 per class.

Which is what I was wondering, Crossbow--from the way you phrased things, I honestly wasn't sure. (Granted it was phrased a bit snarkily--my bad--it really was a serious question.)

Also, De, I think the original point of the other one is very much in play; and this one can be recovered, I think, since the discussion is far from played out.

Most of the artists who I have heard or read on the topic, speak of their art (be it music, painting, or whatever) as something inside of them that HAS to come out. They say things like "I write/paint because I have to or else I'd explode." Not that they don't sometimes go through dry spells, nor that producing their art is easy. But overall, there is a near-compulsion to express themselves, respond to the world, or send a message - through the medium of their art. If someone doesn't have that compulsion then I'd question whether they really are called to be an artist. Conversely, if they do have that compulsion, then I'd suggest they do have a calling in that area which God would have them use, if not as a full time job then at least in some other way - regardless of whether they were super-talented or not. I don't think God gives us those urges, those places where we really come alive, without meaning for them to have an outlet somewhere.

I've heard some people speak of the call to a ministry of preaching/teaching the same way.

What to do with the person who feels that compulsion and is looking for an outlet, but who doesn't seem to have much talent? The tone-deaf woman who thinks she's called to be on the worship team, the boring-as-sawdust person who is convinced he's called to be a teacher or small group leader? Yeah, those are delicate questions to be handled with truth, love, gentleness, humility and hopefully, creativity.

Crossbow, I'd agree with De's suggestion that your fellow artists would be more reliable judges of your art, than random church people. Maybe they weren't offering false praise, but just didn't know the difference. But you are right we in the church have a hard time finding the middle ground between dishonest, false praise on the one hand, or totally trashing someone on the other (unfortunately often doing both at the same time, one to their face and the other behind their back).

Coming back to the root of this post, I think Craig Barnes' generational taxonomy is valuable here. His grandfather was a tobacco farmer who lived just outside Rocky Top, NC in a big farmhouse with pictures of six generations of Barnses who had farmed there hanging on the wall. Barnes calls that generation (and those before) Settlers, both because they settled in one place and put down roots there, and because they settled for a fairly difficult way of life.

His father, by contrast, was a GI in WWII, then went to college on the GI Bill, and instead of going back to North Carolina, settled in one of the new suburbs. He and his family would, however, go home for Christmas. Barnes calls that generation Exiles, because they knew where home was, but they didn't live there.

His own generation, the Baby Boomers, are something of a transitional generation--I guess you might describe them as the generation that started to think of exile as home. His daughter's generation--she's in her 20s--are another thing altogether; Barnes calls them Nomads, because they're a generation of wanderers with no real sense of home. He illustrated this with a couple examples from her life. During college, she did a semester overseas, in Rome. One morning she called up a friend who was doing the same thing in Budapest and made arrangements to meet for dinner in Vienna--a sequence of events that would have completely bewildered his grandfather, to whom a cell phone would have been a completely alien concept. Also during her college years, Barnes left his church in Washington, DC, where she had grown up, and moved to Pittsburgh; the home she had known as a child disappeared out from under her. She could still go visit her parents, but it was someplace new and strange.

Though Barnes didn't talk about this, one component of the rootlessness he's identified is divorce; of the couples we know our age or younger, Sara and I are fairly rare in having both sets of parents still married. This is a major generational trauma which is not sufficiently considered or addressed, largely I think because the leaders of our culture don't want to face the consequences of their own selfishness. It's something, though, which I think the church really needs to understand, and particularly to understand that the effects are far-reaching indeed.

Where I think this comes into play in the context of this post is in the recognition that when Trevin Wax says, "My generation is musically fragmented," it's fragmented in far more ways than that. You're talking about a vast number of people who have no roots, no sense of home, and no solid place to belong--and that's what the church has to offer them. I'm convinced that's why Webber's "ancient-future" language resonated so powerfully with so many younger folks, and why there are leaders in the church like RUF's Kevin Twit pushing the recovery of ancient hymnody and liturgy, because they give people roots. They give us a sense of place, which is profoundly important--a sense of being connected to, and belonging to, this huge and deep and meaningful and eternal body of believers, by whom we are accepted and among whom we can find a home. We might not belong to a particular place, but we belong to a particular people, a peculiar people.

And yes, though my issues are different, I include myself firmly in that "we"; but I know I'm far from alone in this.

Before I forget, what's RUF?

So, um, hi. Relatively new to the Thinklings - at least to commenting on anything here, but this conversation was too good to stay out of. Thank you!

I posted a few thoughts at the end of the original article in question - there's some interesting discussion going on there, tho I think a few of his readers missed his point.

I lead worship for a college and 20somethings ministry at a mega-church, and boy, does it get interesting sometimes. There's definitely a sense of "we don't fit"-ness at times - most of our people love hymns, but you won't hear any on Sunday mornings, so we do them on Monday nights when we can. We're "left out" (unless we choose not to be) by the language used on Sundays - mostly they preach to the married with kids crowd - which is fine - most of it's applicable to us too, and there are pastors who are more senstitive about that sort of thing, which is nice - but funny because a recent survey turned up that only 40% of our church is married with kids. LOL. Sorry, but I think that's kind of funny, considering the way we do ministry. Anyway, I really appreciated that imagery about the whole Settler/Exile/Nomad thing - I'm definitely one who would throw herself into the Nomad category. I have this crazy wanderlust, and get antsy if I've been in any situation for more than 2 years; I want to see the world and do all sorts of things - but I also have this insatiable longing for home, and I think it's a longing that most of the 20something generation has, whether they'd verbalize it that way or not. We want to belong somewhere, and we're looking for home, not just place-wise, but really more in terms of people. As Rob Bell says, "the question is, who are you going to call?" That's the community you belong to - those are the people who are "home" to you.

One of the things that makes our 20somethings community a place people want to be is the fact that we are very intentional about community. I was sick yesterday, and 2 friends called to make sure I was okay and to see if they could bring me soup. I love that. That's the church being the church. And it's ultimately what we're looking for - sure, Sunday morning services are important and critical to our spiritual lives - but again, to pull from Rob Bell's thoughts - it's just an hour on Sunday. It's a SERVICE - offered by those gifted and called within the church who serve there to the community for the enhancement of our spiritual lives - but not meant to be the "be all and end all" of our walk for the week. Church is what happens the rest of the week too. It's checking in with your friends who are struggling, mailing a check to your friends in Canada to cover the cost of their phone bill to you when you can afford it better than they can; it's inviting someone over for dinner in SPITE of the fact that your house - and your life - is a mess at the moment. (Thank you, Lauren Winner, for teaching me that - Mudhouse Sabbath - one of the best books I've ever read.) It's a lot of things, and much more than what kind of music we play (or slaughter painfully) on Sunday mornings.

Stated earlier in the comments here:
"As a worship leader, I don't want to have to be about style. I want to be about what is good and fitting, and whatever that might be, that's what I want to use in putting the service together, whether it be the oldest hymn in the hymnal or the newest Matt Redman song on the radio, or for that matter, drama, dance, sculpture, or painting. If it's the best thing available to focus the worshipers (myself included) on God and who he is and what he wants us to understand this Sunday, then that's what I want to use, and I really don't want any other considerations getting in the way of that." - me too. Don't tell me you're becoming emergent in your old age. :) (j/k - don't go jumping off on emergent theology.) :) I do appreciate what the emergent church has done in terms of opening my eyes to the value of various forms of art in our services - and our community has benefitted richly from that. (For more on how, see this post: http://afundamentalshift.blogspot.com/2007/08/sacred-space_09.html

Anyway, just a few thoughts from a not-quite-20something-anymore girl who leads worship in her sockfeet.

And Crossbow, I really appreciated this: "Having a quiet time when you can roll out of bed at 10:00 am, be at class at noon, get done with classes at 3:00, and have the rest of the day to yourself is hugely different than when you have to get up at 6:00 just to rush to work by 8:00, work till 6:00, come home exhausted, etc." It's so true - and 10 years post-college graduation, I am still struggling to find a rhythm in life that includes the kind of time I used to have. But oh, how I want it, because ultimately - as much as we say we're looking for community, our generation is really looking for God. Thank heaven for His promise that if we draw near to Him, He will draw near to us.

Hi Happy - welcome!

Thanks. :) I come via the ancient mariner, who accosted me 14 years ago on our college campus and refused to believe I was okay (I wasn't) and wouldn't leave me alone until I talked about it. We've been good friends ever since. :) He later married my sophomore year roommate (whom I met in the laundry room one night freshman year when she was fed up with her OT class and needed to vent to anyone who would listen.) :) I love how God works sometimes...

RUF = Reformed University Fellowship, the campus ministry of the Presbyterian Church in America.

Yeah, though you can really thank the Pachelbel Rant for that one. :)

RUF, btw, is the Reformed University Fellowship.

Don't tell me you're becoming emergent in your old age. :)

Gee, thanks, dear sister mine. :rolleyes: Seriously, that's a whole other post--which reminds me, I really need to get posting on my blog again--but all in all, I'm no more or less emergent than I was seven years ago when I was trying to get Dave to make some shifts at Fourth Corner (some of the same issues you're talking about, ironically enough); I think what I think, and I'm still sorting out what exactly it is those folks think and how it relates to what I think. (I do think there's a book in there somewhere, though, if I can ever get enough brainspace to get it written while it still matters.)

Anyway, appreciate the comments, to which I'll respond further tomorrow--we took the kids to Denver to Ringling Bros. for Rebekah's fourth birthday today, so it's late, I'm tired, and 6:30 comes early. (Oh, and look for my comments on the forgiveness post tomorrow, unless something comes up.)

AM and Happy, I am curious what college you guys attended? Does asking that question breach blog protocol?

To your second question, see posts #21 & #22 . . . :)

To your first, Hope College, in Holland, MI. It's a Reformed Church in America liberal-arts school.

One of the things that makes our 20somethings community a place people want to be is the fact that we are very intentional about community. I was sick yesterday, and 2 friends called to make sure I was okay and to see if they could bring me soup. I love that. That's the church being the church. And it's ultimately what we're looking for - sure, Sunday morning services are important and critical to our spiritual lives - but again, to pull from Rob Bell's thoughts - it's just an hour on Sunday. It's a SERVICE - offered by those gifted and called within the church who serve there to the community for the enhancement of our spiritual lives - but not meant to be the "be all and end all" of our walk for the week. Church is what happens the rest of the week too.

I had some half-formed thoughts in response to that when I went to bed last night, and they seem to have leaked out my ears. I agree with you completely, though; and going back to Craig Barnes again, one of the points he made is that speaking theologically, in truth we're all homeless in this world, it's just that those who feel themselves to be nomads are much more aware of it than those who feel themselves to be at home here. Barnes considers this to be a real opportunity for the church--and taken all in all, I think he's right.

Thanks, I attended Wheaton and am familiar with Hope. Good school. Wheaton and hope even played one another in football a few weeks ago, I think.

Happy, I think this quote from an interview with Rob Bell echoes some of what you were saying about community:

"We say, "This isn't the church, this is a church service. It's just an hour where we have some teaching, some singing and you'll hear about things in the community." If there are 43 "one anothers" in the New Testament—serve one another, carry one another's burden's, confess to one another—you can only do a couple of those in a church service. Until you have a community that you are journeying with, please don't say you are a part of this church. You just come to a gathering. We are very intentional about that. The question is, "Who do you call when your brother ODs on cocaine? If your mom is in the hospital, who comes and sits in the waiting room with you? When you cannot pay your rent, who do you go to and say please help me out?" That's your church. "