Don't forget to pray for the families of the hundreds of babies who never had a chance to live because of this man.

I would never condone murder like this, of course. But at the same time, I feel the same way as when I hear about a terrorist getting blown up by our soldiers.

I would never condone murder like this, of course. But at the same time, I feel the same way as when I hear about a terrorist getting blown up by our soldiers.

Being pro-life means valuing life at every stage. It doesn't stop after birth.

Murder is murder. What this person did to Dr. Tiller is no different than what Dr. Tiller did to so many pre-born children. I'm terribly saddened by both realities.

Just read the article. Aren't we kind of assuming that the motive was the fact that he was an abortion doctor. They don't seem to really know anything yet. Maybe someone killed him for another reason...

Jenn, I know what you mean, but I disagree.

Murder is illegal, unfortunately abortion is not.

I think the distinction is important. A non-Christian acting within the bounds of the law can commit a heinous act - and be naive to it being murder. He truly doesn't believe he's doing anything wrong, and perhaps doesn't believe in a God who would show him otherwise.

Related issue - I watched the movie "Milk" over the weekend. Harvey Milk was a gay rights activist who was (more or less) murdered for his beliefs. We believe being gay is wrong (not Biblical) but I actually had compassion on Milk for what happened to him. I disagreed with him, but he lived passionately according to his beliefs.

In both instances I think its more accurate to view these people as "lost" rather than "muderers" and "fornicators".

I don't disagree with you in what you're saying Jen and Inklingstar, but I think we have to be very careful how we say what we say.

Both of your statements come across as "evil" to the the other side. That's not how you intend them I know, but we should be cautious not to say things that inflame - I think it pushes us further away from ever seeing abortion become illegal.

I haven't been keeping up with the news, but I read (on Drudge?) that a suspect is in custody. Might be the guy they were looking at previously who has anti-abortion stuff posted online.

You could be right, I don't know. It'd be a weird coincidence, I think.

The problem is not that abortions happen. They, as will murders, rapes, thievery, will always happen until Jesus appears.

The problem is that this country, defying God, has legitimized abortion by making it legal.

In a godly society the abortionist, the woman, the assistants, and all others involved as accomplices (eg, the kid's dad who transported the gal to the abortuary) would face possible murder charges and resulting execution.

The contrast between the sanctions of law protecting the innocent and those sanctions protecting the murderous creates the conundrum developed in the comments above.

nhe, a "poor misguided soul" could not, in my opinion, deliberately stick a needle into a near-fully-formed face of a baby, killing it - and call that service.

The difference between Canaanite slaughter and the modern day is the intervening death of Jesus Christ.

Inklingstar, why aren't you killing abortionists?

Honest question, not tongue in cheek.

"The difference between Canaanite slaughter and the modern day is the intervening death of Jesus Christ."

Then what of my other examples - Hitler, bin Laden, McVeigh? They are (were) just as guilty of murder as this doctor.

"Inklingstar, why aren't you killing abortionists? "

As I said, I don't necessarily condone this murder. My reaction is against those like the author of this NRO piece that act as if this is some sort of tragedy. The real tragedy is the hundreds of millions of unborn children murdered by men like this doctor. In my view, his death is no tragedy, just as McVeigh's death was not, or bin Laden's would not be.

"True Justice is for God alone."

Then why do we have a court system?

Inklingstar: first you write

I would never condone murder like this, of course.

Then, after thinking (ahem) about it, you write:

I don't necessarily condone this murder.

You didn't actually answer the question. But given your changing attitude (or your growing comfort in acknowledging how you really feel) I would guess your third outpouring might get us somewhere interesting (and pretty scary, too!).

Why are you not out there killing doctors?

Sorry, #24 was me, not Bill. :-)

I have said what I said - trying to parse my comments to find some sort of contradiction would be an exercise in futility.

nhe - It's easy to sit back in this comfortable life and say things like "all death is tragic" whether it be innocents, unborn children, or murderers of the worst sort. But if you take that position to its logical conclusion you would have to be against all military action as well as deaths occurring through self-defense.

I think a lot of Christians try to say things like this without really thinking them through. Did Peter and John mourn Ananias and Sapphira? All they did is lie... today we would consider that a trifle compared to murder. Sure, they were killed by God Himself rather than by the hand of man - but this is the same God that said that if a man kills, then by man's hand he will be killed.

I wouldn't call myself a theonomist. I do not see us as a modern-day Israel, subject to OT laws. I do however believe that if abortion is murder, then the practitioners of this act should be prosecuted the same as any other murderer.

Jared, I do not believe that it is incompatible to condemn an act whilst appreciating the result. God used Assyria and Babylon to punish Israel, yet those nations were themselves punished for their warmongering and idolatry. In the same way, while I condemn vigilante murder and would never do the same thing myself, I can say that I think this man got what he deserved.

What other people think is of no concern - they hate us no matter what. In this case, your analogy is flawed. The "people on that bus" are killed merely because they are Jewish or Israeli. There can be no logical assertion that that is a crime or immoral act. Committing murder through abortion is an immoral act, even if it is not considered a crime in this country.

Many in the Middle East hold bin Laden up to be a hero - does that mean we should too? If our soldiers kill him, should we mourn his death and condemn our soldiers?

Sure, they were killed by God Himself rather than by the hand of man - but this is the same God that said that if a man kills, then by man's hand he will be killed

Right: They were struck down by God himself. Peter didn't shoot them.

Also: "By man's hand" does not refer to interpersonal vengeance.

But if you take that position to its logical conclusion you would have to be against all military action as well as deaths occurring through self-defense

No, you don't. If we look at the Bible, we can see that the government is authorized to wield the sword in execution of justice. This is true even in the OT, when God commanded slaughter of nations and execution for law violation. But Scripture repeatedly condemns interpersonal retribution.

while I condemn vigilante murder and would never do the same thing myself

Inklingstar, why wouldn't you do the same thing yourself? You have yet to explain that.
You just say you dont' condone it. It's not a tragedy, and it's on par with the Nazi guards, and he got what he deserved, and the Bible says murderers should die by man's hands . . . but you don't say why you personally would not obey what you apparently think is a Scriptural okay to kill an abortionist.
Why don't you condone it? You haven't explained that yet, apart from just repeating it and then adding a "but."

Dr. Tiller got what we all deserve.

Dr. Tiller got what we all deserve

This is an important point Jared makes IStar.

The Nazi war criminal, the abortion doctor, and I all have the SAME heart (i.e. - the same capacity for evil).

We're all equally in need of a savior and are equally lost without one.

It seems to be wrong to allow how angry someone made me personally during their life affect how I view them at their death.......it would be understandable, but it would be wrong.

The impulse to kick or malign the dead person who was evil during their life should be controlled, no matter how directly that evil affected us personally.......because in the end, if he and I were both to stand before God without Jesus as our savior, we would both face equal wrath, and the same eternal fate.

"The impulse to kick or malign the dead person who was evil during their life should be controlled, no matter how directly that evil affected us personally.......because in the end, if he and I were both to stand before God without Jesus as our savior, we would both face equal wrath, and the same eternal fate."

Again, the logical conclusion of this line of thinking precludes any judicial action. Just because we are all sinful people does not mean that certain crimes should not be punished with certain actions.

A lot of the comments here are misrepresenting what I am saying. I am not condoning murder. I am not even saying that this was something that should have happened. All I am saying is that I do not see why I should feel sympathetic toward this man just because he was killed in this way.

Murder is immoral and illegal. If someone commits murder in this country, they should be punished. If someone who commits murder in this country is punished by execution, do you consider that just? Abortion is immoral but legal. The people who make the laws in this country have decided that this kind of murder is acceptable. Does that make it any less immoral?

Yes, in the end we are all sinners and we all deserve death. I believe, however, that here on earth we have a chance to show our beliefs and actions. Do we abhor sin, even the sin in ourselves, and look to Christ as our only salvation? Or do we pay lip service to the Word of God while practicing an abhorrent evil, even glorying in it, like this man did?

In the end we're all condemned before God and only the blood of Christ can redeem us. But here on earth there are consequences for crimes and for immoral acts. This man was no different than any other serial killer and should not be mourned any differently.

Trust in God, even hope that he put his trust in Christ... but don't be sad that he is dead. He chose to build his life on the slaughter of innocents.

Does that make it any less immoral?

Yes!!!! - If an immoral act is a willfully disobedient act. The abortion doctor is not being willfully disobedient.

nhe 14,16,39
Misguided abortionist? Not willfully disobedient? You think your evaluation more accurate than God's? No matter the internal rationalizations, no matter the forceful self delusion, suppression of truth (Ro 1:18) reveals active, not passive rebellion. These people *know* they deserve death, but actively promote and pursue their wickedness anyway (Ro 1:32).

Even tho the pro murder people attempt confusion by observing human law (Roe, etc) supports them, they know better. Instead of caving in to their rebellion, nhe, call their bluff, Pr 26:5. Who knows, maybe that sort of loving concern will be used by the Spirit to bring life rather than death.

Roy, of course.........I don't know why you think I would disagree with that. The tone is a tad condescending there brother. I'm not sure why you think anyone here would disagree with Romans 1.

I'm responding to the notion that the abortion doctor is no different than the serial killer, Bin Laden, etc.

We all are guilty of ignoring truth we choose to suppress. However, the serial killer is not just "doing his job".....and the suicide bomber is "intending harm"........this can not be said (necessarily) of the abortion doctor.

I think that its wrong to apply the same motive and corresponding disdain to each of them - their motives are different, though they're equally fallen.

I think focusing on whether Tiller and other abortionists know what they're doing is wrong or not is to lose focus.
The question before us is: Is it right or wrong for an individual to execute vengeance on another?
---

But one may, can, must protest this twisting of the function of law. One may, can, must call for just laws.

Absolutely!

I am pro-life. I believe abortion is killing babies.

I am not arguing at any point here that abortionists aren't deserving of God's judgment.

I'm just saying that because we all deserve God's judgment, it is beyond any individual responsibility to execute the judgment of God.

Let us love our neighbor in ways that make the temptation for abortion withstandable. Let us champion adoption and make it more affordable. Let us educate others on what abortion entails and increase use of ultrasounds and sonograms.

And let us change the law of the land and prosecute the abortion trade.

And in all this let us remember that "Vengeance is Mine," thus saith the Lord.

Dietrich Bonhoffer's main claim-to-fame was that he was imprisoned and excecuted for being involved in a conspiracy to assasinate Hitler. He's a hero of the faith. I've never heard the morality of his crimes questioned by Christians. Why is this?
What if you lived next-door to a man you knew regularly kidnapped and murdered children? What if the police, for whatever reason, wouldn't arrest him? Would you kill him?
I don't have answers for these questions, but there is a glaring discrepancy when Christians respond to news like the Dr. Tiller murder.

No offense, but I think you're ignoring what I'm trying to say. The act of murdering this man was wrong.

No, i hear you saying "I don't condone it" and now I hear you saying "It was wrong."

What I've yet to hear you say is why.

You folks seem determined to read something into my words that I am not saying.

Yes, I am determined to read something you're not saying. I'm still wondering if you'll say it, so I can read it.

Last time, then I won't bother you by asking any more:
Why don't you condone Tiller's murder?
Why was it wrong?

"Here's my problem with this statement IStar - you imply (to me) that Tiller's unredeemed heart laid bare before God is somehow more wicked than yours, or mine. Would you say that? "

If you go back and read what I've written you find that I denied this very statement.

Like I said, it's easy to sit back and make blanket statements to the effect of "every man's death is a tragedy" but I think that just whitewashes the situation. Ananias and Sapphira, the children of Jericho and Amelak, even the youths who taunted Elisha were all struck down by God, and went unmourned. I don't see why it's so hard to say the same about this man who gloried in the brutal murder of unborn children just because it was a misguided soul who took his life. I support the punishment of the murderer, but I do not see why I should feel compassion for the dead man.

We are all the same before God, yet He still chose to kill those people I mentioned above. Just because this man was murdered by another man, rather than by God Himself, does not mean to me that I must be sad for his death.

Does that make me barbaric? Does that make me sinful? (I am already!) I believe my views are consistent. Abortion is, in my opinion, one of the most heinous acts a human being can carry out. I cannot feel compassion for the death of a man who not only practiced it, but practiced it in its worst and most barbaric form, glorying in it and making himself rich over it.

If you want to twist that into something I am not saying, feel free. I am baring my honest feelings, even though it seems the crowd wants something else.

Michele, my take no Bonhoeffer is that entire nations were at war with Hitler, as head of a terrorist state, and Bonhoeffer was part of an internal resistance, a turncoat if you will, working in conjunction with foreign nations who had declared war against Germany.

Same reason I wouldn't fault a member of the Taliban renouncing his allegiance, taking up allegiance with the nations and their war on terror, and fighting against bin Laden.

It's a nuanced view, I admit. But the frame of reference is not the same as taking law into our hands as a matter of person to person retribution.

I also don't think it's the same as self-defense. If a guy on the street had a gun to a kid's head, I wouldn't think twice about taking the guy out, if I was able. (Also: the law would be on my side.)

That might apply to the saving kids from my neighbor, provided I could explain to the police after the fact, in correspondence with their own laws against kidnapping and murder, that he was in violation.
If for whatever hypoethetical reason they won't arrest him based on my accusations -- and thankfully people can't be arrested indefinitely based purely on accusations -- surely if it something I could know without a doubt, I could also provide evidence for.

In any event, unless he was in the very act of breaking the law against murder, I don't think it'd be right for me to knock on his door and shoot him when he answers.

Jared 45 cf my 44 (we are agreeing re rule of law)

Inklingstar 46
"Why aren't you?" Because submission to God's law regarding properly constituted authority says I may not. God's revealed will forbids vigilantees, especially lone vigilantees, especially those scorning (the hard, time consuming, submissive) process of establishing and maintaining civil authority that fears God.

The murderer of Tiller sinned against God's revealed will. Even tho that same revealed will says he should have been executed long ago.

I mourn Tiller's death as I must that of *any* human, sinner tho they may be. Of course that mourning has a number of nuances, flavors, mixtures. Egs: I did not know him personally. His death does not immediately and directly and obviously affect me. I know he should have been executed. I know some loner should not have killed him. I know he deserved death. I know he will murder no more. I know that grace rather than personal good separates me from having done what he did. I know God's revealed will is that all should repent, trust Jesus, and obey him, that his revealed will is that none should perish. I know that I must make his revealed will about capital punishment sovereign over my proper, godly aversion to taking human life.

Bottom line: the internal conflicts proceeding out of the posts on this thread come from a legal fiction which declares murder legitimate.

You agree, then, that when God commands capital punishment we should obey? That we should encourage, work for, and participate in a judicial system that accomplishes that end via the means God spells out (in contrast to acting as loners on our own commission)

Roy, yes and kind of. If God demands capital punishment, it is our duty to carry it out. I think we should encourage rule of law. I don't think that means I have to be pro-capital punishment in all instances or any instance, for that matter, other than by the direct hand of God.

My point wasn't that God is the only one who can punish anyone and we should oppose criminal justice, but my point was simply that the fact that we have to repay wrongs is a symptom of our universal illness. I don't believe it is ever right for someone to be executed or go to jail, just an unfortunate necessity. I also believe the judicial system is imperfect, and that justice dealt out by man is never true justice. There are always flaws, and they are always human.

Roy, yes. And I'm wracking my brains trying to figure out what I said in my few comments and in my original post that made you think I might not be dreadfully against loners acting on their own.

It was something I said in comment #24. I wrote the comment on your computer and didn't change the information.

"If so, good thing their dad didn't bring his work home with him."

This conversation is done.