Awesome Bill.

I remember listening to a podcast from JP and he told a story of some missionaries in one of his church services that he was commissioning to long-term overseas mission work. They had non-believing relatives who had come so that they might be a part of their send-off. The missionaries asked that Piper speak something to the relatives to assuage their anxiety over the missionaries' children being raised in a third-world country.

He spoke of how the children would be spared the spiritual horror that is american culture and have a better chance of growing up closer to God being separate from everything that "the world" offers us through our over-indulgant society.


My thought: Sometimes what we consider suffering is blessing in disguise and actually spares us some sense of deeper suffering that we might go through - not that we ought to avoid suffering if it is, indeed, our destiny and essential. Still, knowing that God is all-knowing/powerful, etc. helps when the idea of suffering arises as a calling.

When we suffer grace comes alone side and in so doing we experience the hand of God upon us.

I think of Al King who served here in Crimea for 11 years and was waiting to return for further service. On April 13th Al died of a brain tumor. Al and his wife Dolly said they were thankful God had chosen them to suffer in this way. That's grace!

As much as I respect John Piper, I think we can superspiritualize the issue of suffering. And too many Christians do just that.

Will we suffer because of our message? Absolutely. But suffering for the message of Christ and suffering because this is a fallen world may not be the same thing.

Jesus suffered and died at the hands if His creations. But Jesus came to relieve suffering. His entire ministry was geared at restoring the Kingdom of God, a Kingdom ultimately devoid of suffering.

Jesus proclaims the beginning of His ministry:

"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."
—Luke 4:18-19

This is a ministry at odds with suffering.

Think also on this:

And behold, a woman who had suffered from a discharge of blood for twelve years came up behind him and touched the fringe of his garment, for she said to herself, "If I only touch his garment, I will be made well." Jesus turned, and seeing her he said, "Take heart, daughter; your faith has made you well." And instantly the woman was made well.
—Matthew 9:20-22

Did Jesus rebuke her for wanting to be rid of her suffering? No! He praised her for her faith, for not making peace with her condition, but seeking Him so that she may be made whole in her body.

How strange we have made things when we call it faithfulness when we try to make peace with conditions that are aberrant.

When John the Baptist asks for a confirmation of Jesus, we read this:

And Jesus answered them, "Go and tell John what you hear and see: the blind receive their sight and the lame walk, lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear, and the dead are raised up, and the poor have good news preached to them. And blessed is the one who is not offended by me."
—Matthew 11:4-6

In that verse we see the two types of suffering. Christ opposes the one and blesses the other.

Our problem is that we have made the two indistinguishable. Suffering because of the message we proclaim when compared with all other types of human suffering is distinctive. When we confuse them, though, we commit a grave error.

"As much as I respect John Piper, I think we can superspiritualize the issue of suffering. And too many Christians do just that. "

DLE, we can be unbalanced in anything. I didn't post this to argue for an unbalanced view of suffering.

If you're like me (and most likely you are further along than I am, so you're not like me), well, I've made life about avoiding suffering entirely. That is also unbalanced.

One point (and maybe not the most important one) being made here, though, is that even the suffering that you argue we should not be at peace with (for instance, Al King's brain tumor) can glorify God.

Dan, can you put the know-it-all thing to rest for once? Just once.
It's exhausting.

Grave error?
Please point out where Piper or Bill committed grave error.

I notice you didn't quote any Paul in your prooftexts.

How strange we have made things when we call it faithfulness when we try to make peace with conditions that are aberrant.

Romans 5:3?
Romans 8:17?
2 Corinthians 11:30?
Ephesians 3:13?
Philippians 1:29?
1 Peter 4:12?

I don't think the Scriptures dissect suffering the same way you do, Dan. They do speak of different types of suffering, but they don't say "this kind is good for you" and "this kind is bad for you." They don't say it's okay to rejoice in one kind but not in another.
Our instructions in all kinds of suffering remain the same: trust, hope, and rejoice. And of course we can and should pray for relief from suffering, no matter where it comes from.

Whether I'm being persecuted for my faith or struck with a debilitating illness, both sufferings are opportunities for me to be cross-like conformed to the likeness of Christ in his suffering.

Bill,

Too much of Christianity in the West, especially in some denominations, has this fatalistic view of suffering, a sort of "Oh well, nothing can be done, better just live with" sort of faithlessness that should trouble us all.

Our church sponsors a couple dozen native missionaries, folks in India, China, and so on. Those people come to suffering with an attitude that the Lord Jesus Christ is bigger than suffering and can bring people out of that suffering. Those people have faith that Christ's Kingdom destroys the kingdom of the enemy, a kingdom devoted to the creation and maintenance of suffering. That's why entire households come to Christ when these missionaries come in and demonstrate in power that the Kingdom of God drives out the kingdom of the enemy. People who were suffering with both spiritual and physical afflictions are released from those prisons.

We in the West, however, don't think this way. And that's a mistake.

Jared,
The problem with Piper's discussion of suffering is that he lumps it all together. This will give people the impression that we should always make our peace with suffering. That can lead to a defeatist attitude that fails to keep approaching God for release from suffering. We are to press into God and continue to ask that He release us from suffering. Persistent widow, remember? Again, did Christ commend the woman with the issue of blood for her persistence in seeking healing or rebuke her for failing to make peace with her suffering?

This is not to say that we can't learn from suffering or that God doesn't use suffering. (Why was this man born blind? So that God's glory might be made manifest in him.) But too many Christians give up on suffering at a point when they should be pressing God even harder for release from it. Again, suffering is an aberrant condition.

And I do think there is a distinction. Suffering for the sake of Christ and suffering because you have cancer eating your body are two different types of suffering. The unbeliever cannot possibly suffer from the former, but he can most definitely suffer from the latter. Our suffering for Christ is unique to Christians, and it's a suffering for His message and its divisiveness.

And as much as Paul is cited for his thorn in the flesh, he still went to God about it. God's answer for Paul was that it was a necessary thing. But is it a necessary thing for all people in all cases? I don't believe that is always the case, so we should not treat cases of suffering as foregone conclusions that God wants people to suffer for some greater purpose. Doing so would be fatalism. The causes of suffering are works of the enemy and Christ came to destroy those works.

We must ask ourselves, "Did Jesus Christ come to relieve suffering, both in body and in spirit?" If we say yes, then we cannot treat suffering blithely. We must see it as a curse that Christ dealt with at the cross. If we say no, then we have created for ourselves a very small God indeed.

That can lead to a defeatist attitude

If this is what you're seeing, you're not really reading Piper.
And you're not really understanding the view.

It's about joy, about conforming to Christ.

Who said anything about not wanting to be released from it?

In my understanding, it is your view that can lead to defeatism and despair, because if we believe that pain and suffering is not God's will and are constantly begging him to remove it and he doesn't, what are we left with? A God who doesn't care about us? Who really wants people not to suffer but apparently he's cool with it if it happens to me?

One reason God allows us to suffer the same way unbelievers do, in my opinion, is so that they may see that we approach and endure suffering differently.

But nobody's saying -- and I've never heard anybody say or suggest -- that when we suffer we shouldn't ask to be released from it. That's made up on your part.

Jared,

In some Reformed circles a persistent defeatist attitude exists on this issue. I've been a part of those churches and have friends who have left those churches for this very reason, so I'm not making this up. I believe that the lack of solid teaching on spiritual warfare in some Reformed circles may be at the heart of this.

But this is not strictly a Reformed lack. Much of evangelicalism has a deficient (or purposefully suppressed) understanding of the enemy. Our battle is not against flesh and blood, but against dark powers and authorities allied against the Kingdom of God. Suffering is the hallmark of their kingdom's activity. We are called to oppose that activity, not make peace with it or to try to manufacture joy out of it. Jesus Christ came to destroy the works of the enemy, and He did so at the cross, purchasing our release by His own substitutionary act.

As I mentioned previously, the glory of God was made manifest in the man born blind, but not because he stayed blind! That glory was made manifest only when the man was released from his suffering, not because he endured it like a trooper. Pain is pain. Live with debilitating pain for years on end. There's not much joy or glory in it.

On the other hand, should we count it all joy when we are persecuted because of our message? Yes, because it attests to our future in heaven. I would say that, as I read the Bible, the suffering spoken of most often with regards to Christians is the suffering endured through direct persecution because of our message of Christ. That kind of suffering builds up.

But as someone who has suffered from a few kidney stones over the years, I can't say that I learned much or found much joy while I was writhing in excruciating pain for hours on end. Indentify with Christ in His sufferings? Check. Okay, a valuable lesson learned the first time around. That I tend to trust the painkillers for relief more than I trust the Lord to bring relief? Okay, guilty as charged. I'm definitely a product of Western civilization. Am I shallow then? Probably. But honestly, I've not learned much from my encounters with that kind of pain. Nor am I learning much from the affliction that has struck my family now. It's just a different facet of suffering and there's not much to find in it except to search for the grace of God where possible and come to Him in faith for release from that suffering.

I didn't say nobody would ever do that. I'm saying that nobody here is advocating that.

To be clear, are you saying that if God doesn't free us from pain this side of heaven that it has no purpose and should be construed as meaningless?
Because that is what it looks like you're saying.

Conversely, I have encountered more defeated believers in spiritual and emotional pain because charismatic/prosperity types are telling them that Jesus doesn't really want them to be suffering the physical pain they are, so they must not be trusting or praying right if they aren't freed from it yet.

there's not much to find in it except to search for the grace of God where possible and come to Him in faith for release from that suffering

That sounds like glorifying God in suffering to me, although I wouldn't say that that's "not much."

Did Al want to be healed, of course, did he pray for healing, of couse, but Al died on a Sunday at the end of the day. I told Dolly what a honor to Al's memory that God gave all of us in saying your work is finished now enter my rest. Just as Sunday was a busy day for Al at the end it was time to enter eternal rest.

You hear how sometimes people try to hang on for family members because they don't want to let them go. I told Dolly don't hold on to him release him to God's hand. So she said it was very calm just one last breath and he was gone.

We enter this world thinking we are in control but leave knowing our next breath is by the grace of God.

It's not so much what happens between these breaths but how do we respond to them.