- D.A. Carson
Been listening to Francis Chan's "The End of the World" series. It's great stuff.
In one message he was talking about God pre-Creation, and how He had no lack. He says something like:
"In the beginning, you weren't there. And it was okay. Everything was fine. You weren't needed. You didn't fix anything by showing up."
I seriously LOL'd on that comment.
But it's awesome and makes a great point.
We don't complete God, and life isn't about us.
Trackback URL: http://thinklings.org/bloo.trackback.php/5040.
I subscribe to the podcast via iTunes.
But I think you can download them via their website:
http://www.cornerstonesimi.com/
Look for the Media link at the top.
Then click Sermons.
I believe we do complete God at some minor level. Kind of like how our kids complete us. Purpose beyond our own existence, at some level God wants us, thus He "needs" us. Maybe?
Paul, I can't go there. Maybe others can. Not me.
For my own journey, I didn't waken to how precious Christ is until I realized how unnecessary I am. To God. To the world.
To know that God has zero need for me, yet loves me and wants me anyway transformed me in a way I cannot explain adequately. It is a blazing grace that I am so thankful for.
Jared, do you think God would be heart broken if you turned your back on Christ? Hypothetically of coarse. There is a "desire" in God to fellowship with His creation. I know he doesn't "need" anyone, But he made Himself capable of experienceing the pain of rejection. I don't need my wife to exist, like I need air to exsit. So do I really need her? YES! I need that woman, and I would give my life for her. Kind of reminds me of Someone.
Paul, I think I can see where you're coming from, so I'd respond by saying, If God needs us at any level, it's only because he chooses to need us. At this point in time, we're into semantics and asking questions that are somewhat pointless. (If God can do anything, can he create a need that He, himself, can't fulfill? {-- pointless)
So, before the world was created, everything was fine and God didn't need anything. He creates the world and creates us in it and so much as he chooses to want to use us to fulfill His purpose, He allows us (yea, preordains us?) to be a part of His work here on earth.
I think that you're teetering on the edge of blasphemy, but I don't gather that you intend dishonor to God, by any means.
Quaid, I in no way want to be mistaken as to imply God actually needs mankind to be complete in Himself. But God has choosen to use man to fulfill his purpose in the earth. If we won't be His hands and feet, He can't minister to people, He is accountable even to His own Word. In Genesis 1:28 He gave Adam dominion over the earth. God gave Adam control of the earthly Kingdom and thus gave dominion to His creation (man). We all know the story from there, but unless He is asked through prayer, He does not interfere. So in a way God does "need" us. Otherwise we could say, well God is in charge, so if innocent people suffer it must be God's will. No, God needs us to be His hands and feet on the earth. He set up this physical realm for us to have dominion over it. I think we are splitting hairs, but when it comes to the physical realm, God has a need to use people.
I can't really go there either Paul. If God "needs" something - then that means he created us out of a sense of "lacking". He was quite content in eternity past with the fellowship of the Trinity - they had already existed eternally together quite well without us.
God "wants" us for sure. But we were created out of abundance, not out of lack or out of need.....I think. Jesus came because God didn't "have" us, not because God "needed" us. I think there is a difference.
Need used as a verb according to the Dictionary : To have something or to want something very much.
God doesn't need man in the sense of a noun. But as a verb, he desires a relationship with His creation. God needs us in a sense of a verb, His desire is always reaching out to His creation. We didn't find God, He wasn't lost, he found us. His need to have a relatioship with us, is proactive. We were content in our sin until we discovered love is a verb.
Just my .02.
God WANTS and DESIRES us rather than needs us. Need, in my own personal experience, speaks to lacking something that is a requirement to live. An example of this would be water or food. However... God does not "need" us in order to be complete, but we are the ones who need Him. Pretty awesome if you think about it. :-)
I can think of one area where God had a need or a lack. He had no bride to give unto His Son. We were created for a purpose, otherwise what is the point of our existence.
One of the chief differences between trinitarian monotheism vs. nontrinitarian monotheism (Islam, Judaism, Jehova's Witness) is that a trinitarian God does NOT have those relational needs unmet absent humanity, because within the Trinity there is an eternal, fully self sufficient relationship of love and fellowship that does not need anything or anyone external to "complete" it or to enable it to fully express all of its relational attributes.
As Charles Williams wrote about nontrinitarians: "they denied love to God except by means of his creation."
I agree that within the Trinity, God is complete and has no relational needs. But doesn't that all change when the Trinity(God) decides to create man in their(His) image. By placing man in a physical realm, and God being Spiritual in form He requires(needs) a submitted man to fulfill the physical tasks of revealing His nature to mankind.
In philosophical thinking, God is the unmoved mover, the only Being who is not dependent, He is full, complete, "the sum of all perfections". By definition, He must be full in Himself, having no needs.
How about a link to Chan's series?