Matthew 24:3,4,12 ESV As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, "Tell us... what will be the sign of your coming and of the close of the age?" And Jesus answered them, "See that no one leads you astray. For... lawlessness will be increased, [and] the love of many will grow cold."

Um, this probably sounds selfish, but can we not get quite that deep into it, Bill? If we do, we'll see death from starvation kick up many notches. Theoretically I wouldn't mind praying for a deeper recession, but a flat-out-no-money depression? Yeah, um, I'd rather not. I've barely got a job, and it barely pays me anything now. I'd rather not lose it, and not be able to get another one for years, thank you.
That said, I wonder if another terrorist attack would do anything to our country's attitude...it seemed to, for at least a while, with 9/11.

I had a discussion about this last year. The retailers are responsible for a lot of this behavior. Not just WalMart but many others love the mad rush for things. I work retail and did work this black Friday thankfully I work home improvement because we had a few key things on sale but several of them in stock. We had a small line waiting at close and lots of employees to help people. We were given several compliments for not being like WalMart.

We sure are a sad lot of folks to do those things.

During the Great Depression, Hitler rose to power in Germany. I think more than a few people got "trampled" as a result of him. A global depression will result in the worst demagogues rising to power.

Yeah, I'm not sure asking God to judge us as a nation is something that we should be doing. I understand it, I just think the better thing to do would be to follow our Lord and ask that God forgive them because they were ignorant, they didn't really know what they were doing (in the eternal understanding of "knowing"). Also, if we are to be known by Love and love thinks the best, hopes the best, believes the best -- where does calling on God to smoke our nation fit in? One more point, if stampede's are the trigger for Divine Judgement, aren't there a few cities in England, Mexico and Brazil that would be up to bat before us? I mean, have you ever seen a crush at one of their football stadiums? That is really the essence of the word "insane".

Peace

I think the point of Bill's post was that even in this time where we're all complaining about how bad the economy is, things like this still happen because we're spoiled enough to have anarchy erupt over TV sets and phones. Freaking phones!

I consider this post something like asking God that the American church undergo persecution that we might be purged of things like the prosperity gospel and checklist Christianity. It's harsh, but things like this make it hard to justify the way things are in the country.

Also, if we are to be known by Love and love thinks the best, hopes the best, believes the best -- where does calling on God to smoke our nation fit in? One more point, if stampede's are the trigger for Divine Judgement, aren't there a few cities in England, Mexico and Brazil that would be up to bat before us? I mean, have you ever seen a crush at one of their football stadiums? That is really the essence of the word "insane".

I don't think you represented the content of the post charitably at all.

I want to know how or if the authorities intend to arrest and hold accountable the people who stepped on and collectively killed a man.

I'd like to think that if I were in crowd of any kind and saw a person lying on the ground being stepped on that I'd stop and help him up, even if it meant my own death.

How could that many people not notice, "Hey, I'm stepping on a guy". Those people should go to jail.

Most news sources I've read/heard are talking about charges.
Seriously though. People don't feel like flat ground. It's not that hard to tell the difference.

What some are saying is that once the "surge" starts, the people in front have no choice but to move or be trampled themselves.
So it's possible the front people were pushed forward by a crowd behind that had no idea someone was dead at the front.

In any event, I think it's stupid and damning that we are lined up outside a store for a day and pushing in when it opens like greedy vultures.

People were stampeded to death during the Great Depression while waiting in food lines. Going through another depression will not cleanse us of our desires to get what we want - just change the object of our greed. Stuff like this has been happening for centuries. Are we just now taking note? I hope not.

Crossbow, what's the alternative to taking note now. Not taking note?

I don't think the people crushed in food lines in the Depression were crushed b/c of greed. I think they were crushed b/c of extreme hunger and desperation. They needed food, as did their families.
Not the same thing as an X-Box.

Are you saying we shouldn't take note of this stuff b/c it's not new?

Are you saying we shouldn't take note of this stuff b/c it's not new?

That has nothing to do with what I said - I am not sure how to answer that. My point was why does this matter to some now, when it has always been a problem in society. Now it matters because it is obviously over our greed? It should have always mattered. Not that it didn't to Bill, just an observation.

I'm no history buff, but from what I remember, people were trampled in food lines to get the higher quality food, but there was always the stale bread and water available elsewhere. Not that this compares to an x-box - I don't think you actually read what I had to say. People will disregard the value of human life to get what they want - whether it is a game system for their kids or just basic food to eat. The point is not what they are trampling others over, but the disregard for human life. The mindset that I am going to get what I want, and don't care who I have to kill to get it. There is never a reason to trample others to death. I don't see how even extreme hunger could justify that.

I do disagree that we need another depression to fix our problems in America with greed. I disagree with this statement:

because in a deep economic downturn people don't trample each other for merchandise, because they have no money.

Because history has proven that in deep economic downturns, people still get trampled for merchandise. The problem, to me, has nothing to do with the economic condition of the country, but with the condition of the human heart. In that respect, I don't see a difference between trampling someone for food or for merchandise - it all becomes about getting what I need at the expense of other people. I was at a church camp once where kids nearly got trampled because everyone just wanted to be the first ones through the line in to the cafeteria at lunch. Just a contest to be first - and people nearly got hurt. That's not desperation or greed - just selfishness.

We should not just be taking note now - we should have already taken note long ago. I don't see how you could have read my comment and taken it to mean that we should ignore this. That is just crazy. It seems like you just like to disagree with everything I have to say... just because I guess? You read something very negative in to what I said, which is usually a sign of extreme dislike. If that is so, then I am not sure why you seem to dislike me so much, but sorry for whatever I did.

Bill, you just volunteered. Because you prayed for starvation and catastrophe to be brought down and for God's hand to be raised against us, you just volunteered to be the steady one who never turns away a hungry or homeless or despairing soul when your prayers are granted. I have no idea how long the countdown will be. But your works are cut out for you.

Of course, I'd hope all of us as brothers and sisters in Christ are right there with you in helping those we meet.

Take care & God bless
Anne / WF

In defense of Bill:

Knowing him personally, I can attest to his generosity, graciousness, humility, kindness, etc. He's acknowledged bad things all over the world, present and past, and I know for a fact that he sees all stampedes that result in death as equally evil.

He isn't praying daily that people will starve or that every one of your 401k's will evaporate overnight. I've personally heard him pray that he himself would learn to rely on money less, and if that means personal suffering, that he would still seek God.

And for those of you who aren't longtime Thinklings readers, he's on record as being a "sovereigntist." Whatever God's will is in this time, he is praying that it be done (and it will). If we are heading into another economic boom, I'm sure he won't be disappointed.

Just so that's out of the way.

Because you prayed for starvation and catastrophe to be brought down and for God's hand to be raised against us, you just volunteered to be the steady one who never turns away a hungry or homeless or despairing soul when your prayers are granted. I have no idea how long the countdown will be. But your works are cut out for you.

He never said that he would pray for anyone to starve. If you must know, you just challenged the most gracious person I know to be gracious. WIth or without economic turmoil, he's consistently been one of the most giving people out there, not only with money, but with his time.

The point of the post was obviously that money and having stuff aren't that important, and certainly not important enough to be worth someone's life. I don't want to accuse anyone here of defending the people who trampled this poor guy to death, but golly people. Is it wrong to be angry about this? Is it wrong to say that greed is the root cause of a good deal of the evil going on in the world?

If our economy does completely disintegrate, will Jesus be enough then? If my college fund dries up, will Jesus still be enough?

These are worthy questions. They should be asked.

For now, lay off old Bill-boy. Judging by the tone of most of the comments here, it's obvious that few of you understood his point, and even more obvious that most of you don't know him. Knowing him makes so many of these accusations/insinuations/charges absolutely ridiculous.

Crossbow: I think it's generating something mainly because it was thrust to the forefront due to the news story and all. *Shrugs* It caught our attention.
Andrew: My comments' intentions weren't to rag on Bill. But you're right, I don't know him personally. I only have his printed words here. I simply responded to something I read (in this case, his prayer for a Great Depression type event).
I'll admit, I'm a young, headstrong guy. But my intention was never to rag on Bill. Just to, in my view, challenge the concept of directly and intentionally praying for this particular chain of events. I also believe God has a plan. If that includes a Depression, so be it. Doesn't mean, necessarily, I'll ask for it. But, that's simply my perspective.

All,

I've been watching this thread develop and haven't really been able to decide the best way to respond. I'd like to thank all of the commenters, those who defended me (and thanks Andrew for your kind words) and also those who have disagreed with me. You've all given me something to think about.

In trying to characterize this post . . . I want to reassure you all that I'm not making a daily practice of praying for God's judgment on my country. You are, of course, correct that the kind of downturn I've spoken of here would be catastrophic, and would result in untold human suffering.

I think what I find galling is the fact that next Black Friday we'll most likely be doing the same thing - lining up at WalMart or Best Buy or Target or whatever to go scarf up the latest deals. And yet the blood of this poor guy who got trampled cries from the concrete upon which it was spilled.

So let me say this: I don't want God to judge America the way she deserves to be judged for these aspects of our culture - I fear that judgment. Another Great Depression would be terrible, as many of you have pointed out. I do, however, look at the current severe downturn with some hope. We've gone off the rails, from a consumption and covetousness point of view, in this country. I don't know the answer, but I know God does, and I pray that He will deal with our country in the way she needs, in His wisdom and grace. I know that He will defend the poor in doing so, and pray that we as a church (and I, personnally) will do the same.

Peace.

I don't see how you could have read my comment and taken it to mean that we should ignore this. That is just crazy. It seems like you just like to disagree with everything I have to say... just because I guess? You read something very negative in to what I said, which is usually a sign of extreme dislike. If that is so, then I am not sure why you seem to dislike me so much, but sorry for whatever I did.

Wow.
What's interesting, Crossbow, is I gather the same thing about your comments. You pretty much always disagree, and I have gathered from your comments here, and past posts at your blog, that you pretty much just don't like me. And I'm not the only one to have gathered that.

Que sera sera, I guess.

To respond, sort of:

We should not just be taking note now - we should have already taken note long ago. I don't see how you could have read my comment and taken it to mean that we should ignore this.

No, what I meant was, I don't get the motivation of your comment, other than you're trying to be contrarian. Bill's noting this now. He can't go back in time to note things that weren't noted.
What I was saying is, it is odd to me to to take someone to task for noting something because nobody was noting things before. Criticism of that sort only seems to exist to be critical. A sign of "dislike," if you will.

It is like if you did a huge blog post about people critical of the church and said critics are dumb or something. And then someone commented and said "Why are you talking about this now? People have criticized the church for decades and nobody was taking note then."

What kind of response is that trying to evoke?

For the record, I don't always disagree with you, but I do disagree with you when your comments are disagreeing with stuff I agree with.

Peace

I need to reveal something here.

I was with Bill in person last Saturday, and I saw him, several times, trample dudes just to get to a small ball that he wanted at all costs.

Hypocrisy.

Bird, why are you noting that now? Nobody was noting it then.

I think what I find galling is the fact that next Black Friday we'll most likely be doing the same thing - lining up at WalMart or Best Buy or Target or whatever to go scarf up the latest deals. And yet the blood of this poor guy who got trampled cries from the concrete upon which it was spilled.

So let me say this: I don't want God to judge America the way she deserves to be judged for these aspects of our culture - I fear that judgment. Another Great Depression would be terrible, as many of you have pointed out. I do, however, look at the current severe downturn with some hope. We've gone off the rails, from a consumption and covetousness point of view, in this country. I don't know the answer, but I know God does, and I pray that He will deal with our country in the way she needs, in His wisdom and grace. I know that He will defend the poor in doing so, and pray that we as a church (and I, personnally) will do the same.

Yeah, I agree with you here.

I wasn't trying to rag on you or anything. I just...dunno. I saw something and reacted. It's a fault of mine, I suppose. I'm a "young buck" yet, so...
Peace?

Shrode,

I'd like to think that if I were in crowd of any kind and saw a person lying on the ground being stepped on that I'd stop and help him up, even if it meant my own death.

If you're interested, another part of the story is that a few people did try to stop and help the poor guy. Because of the press of the crowd, they were physically unable to do anything for him and wound up in the hospital themselves.

May God bless them...

and May God give us more people just like them.

"I wasn't trying to rag on you or anything. I just...dunno. I saw something and reacted. It's a fault of mine, I suppose. I'm a "young buck" yet, so...
Peace?"

Sharpton, I never took any offense at what you (or anyone else on this thread) wrote. We're cool, dude :-)

"I was with Bill in person last Saturday, and I saw him, several times, trample dudes just to get to a small ball that he wanted at all costs."

Heh! Good call, Bird. In my defense, my coach (Blo) told me to play tough D. I think the Roberts trifecta of interceptions proved that both me and my progeny delivered on that score.

And, in my further defense, I'm not the dude who BROKE BLO's THUMB! (for the record, Bird's not either. It was some other dude).

We won the game that mattered . . .

ROFL, Bill, I do not think you're some sort of person who would have that perverse pleasure of enjoying suffering. But I am quite serious: I believe that before God and man you have now volunteered by your prayer to lead the way come what may: whether as being the most cheerful fellow and trusting fellow in the food line or the most cheerful and benevolent fellow filling up the bowls in the food line and taking only the same himself, y'know. A prayer like that -- it puts your soul on the line.

Take care & God bless
Anne / WF

Clarification: it occurs to me that the last line can be misunderstood and therefore probably will be misunderstood. "You put yourself on the line with a prayer like that", is the upshot.

Take care & God bless
Anne / WF

And, in my further defense, I'm not the dude who BROKE BLO's THUMB!

If we would have cracked down on the shorts-pulling then the thumb would have never happened. Freaking Blo! The football pacifist!

If we would have cracked down on the shorts-pulling then the thumb would have never happened. Freaking Blo! The football pacifist!

Hahahaha. If he would have just thrown to Bill more...

I would point out that the one time Blo actually called a play for me, the guy who ended up breaking Blo's thumb TRIPPED me.

But I can't comment. I'm too freaked out by the fact that I am now on the hook to lead the way in our country's recovery from the Great Depression.

I am SO glad I wrote this post [Bill's not sure if his sarcasm in that preceding sentence is necessary. No time to think about it now - he's going to hunker down in the bomb shelter for awhile]