Mixed feelings about this. I hear you about Daniel and Joseph being granted favor--but Joseph was also in prison and suffered adversity, as did Daniel. Are we saying God is glorified in football victories? This sounds like a "theology of glory" instead of a "theology of the Cross." And can we also reflect a bit on the fact that Tebow is playing on the Lord's Day" Does God care about that? Just wondering.

In response to Bill... yes it's possible but the thing is, we would never know for sure. Best to just know that God can be glorified no matter what the circumstances.

As far as playing on Sunday... as Christians we no longer keep the Sabbath and there is nothing prescriptive in the NT about meeting on Sunday. We are told to not "forsake the assembly" which hopefully Tebow is able to do.

On sabbath:
Christians are still supposed to keep the Sabbath, but if we want to be as lawful as possible, we would insist it's Saturday. The new covenant, I believe, allows the customary Lord's Day (Sunday) for sabbath-keeping and any other day, so long as it's regular and honorable rest. I sure hope that's the case since, as a pastor, I do not get much rest on the Lord's Day myself.

On God wanting Tebow to win:
If one believes in God's exhaustive sovereignty, then yes, we do have to believe that God wants Tebow to win the games he's winning. But then we have to believe God wants Brady to have won yesterday too. ;-)
It's not a theology of glory to assume that Tebow's wins are God-ordained so long as we agree that so are his losses.

The bottom line is that if God's concern is utmost for his own glory, he will get it in either football wins or losses, so in this sense, yes, he is putting Tebow into a visible position to bring himself (God) fame, but this is not the same thing as saying that God "cares" about the Broncos having a good season for what have you. If Tebow wins (or loses) it's not because God cares about football but because God cares about what best expands his renown and accomplishes his purposes.

The bottom line is that if God's concern is utmost for his own glory, he will get it in either football wins or losses, so in this sense, yes, he is putting Tebow into a visible position to bring himself (God) fame, but this is not the same thing as saying that God "cares" about the Broncos having a good season for what have you. If Tebow wins (or loses) it's not because God cares about football but because God cares about what best expands his renown and accomplishes his purposes.

Well said.

By "theology of the Cross," I mean that God was most glorified in His Son, and especially His dying on a cross for our sins, per 1 Corinthians. I guess it really grates me to hear that God's glory is "increasing" through Tebow's football wins, when the implication is that God is always on the side of "winners," and not losers; this appears to be a particularly American theology. And, yes, I do wonder about the Sabbath issue--anyone remember Eric Liddell?

Richard

Thanks - I was asking what you meant by Theology of Glory.

Also, to make sure we're on the same page:

"I guess it really grates me to hear that God's glory is "increasing" through Tebow's football wins, when the implication is that God is always on the side of "winners," and not losers; this appears to be a particularly American theology"

I'm not sure all that I meant when I posted this post, but I can assure you that "God is on the side of winners" was about the last thing on my mind. I'm a loser myself. So that's not what I meant. I think that may be an implication some infer from what's happening with Tebow, but it's certainly not something I'm inferring.

Why is it the Tebows are given superstar status in the "Christian" world, and the Freeses aren't?

Well, in this corner of the Christian world (and I don't know what you meant by the scare quotes) Tebow was getting criticized by a number of people in Jared's recent post.

If you're asking why a lot of Christians think highly of Tebow because he's bold with his faith, and don't have the same feelings for Freese, it may be because they don't know Freese is a Christian. (I didn't watch much of the World Series and don't even know who David Freese is, so I may have that wrong).

You're implying (I think) some kind of unfairness, hypocrisy, etc on the part of everyone who likes Tebow, and (I think) also that it's wrong to wear your faith under your eyebrows ;-) - that may be true, but I'd be interested to hear more from you on this.

Yes, I remember Eric Liddell and respect the stand he took.

Bill,

No, I wasn't implying some type of unfairness by all those who are cheer leading Tebow. What I was saying is that there are those who buy into a "God is on the side of victors" mentality, and use Tebow as a shining example of a sanctified Christian walk since, as of this time, he is winning games. A theology of glory sees God as always on the side of winners (in this world), and not "losers." Also, how does Tebow's "in your face" witness reflect on how we should be doing our vocations--are we to do our jobs, to the best of our ability (as a way of serving our neighbor)? Or, are we to see our vocations as a platform to verbally witness to win others to Christ? And, when do the two views conflict? Is Freese less of a Christian witness?

Fun question Bill......and I love Jared's "sovereignty kind of covers it" answer - because I think he's exactly right.

Even though I'm a huge sports fan, I've always had a bigger lump in my throat over the off-the-field stories of athletes - like David Robinson quietly working to redeem a whole generation of kids in San Antonio through his foundation and mentoring....or Mariano Rivera doing the same in Panama......or Danny Wuerful's Desire Street ministry in New Orleans........those stories sadly get don't get the attention, but that's where I think the resounding impact and expansion of God's kingdom really happens in the pro-sports world.

Kurt Warner saying he loves Jesus and that he's going to Disney World as he's showered by confetti just never did much for me.......sure, its positive - but the real positive stuff with pro athletes happens fairly far away from the stadium.

As far as God's concern for expanding His kingdom - I just don't equate it all that much with proclaiming Jesus at pro ballgames.

Bill,

I don't know you--and I don't really know Tebow, so I can't agree that he is a better witness than you. Come on! You are faithful as a witness when you are faithful in your vocations as husband, father, and employee. And when we blow it, as we always do, we confess it and run back to Christ. Being a faithful witness isn't about winning football games so you can proclaim Christ-it's about the little things, every day, faithfully doing to what God has called us to do, even when we want to roll over in bed and go back to sleep.

Thanks everyone - good conversation

A few comments: (and, Karl and nhe, please don't take this as my completely disagreeing with you. There's quite a bit of common ground here, I think):

Karl: "not counting the already-convinced who chalk any public Jesus-mention up as a win for "their side" in the culture wars."

That's a bit cynical, isn't it? Whenever I hear someone who I believe to be authentic (not just thanking God after winning a grammy, and not giving the whole "God was on our side" vibe after a football game) speaking the name of Jesus it makes me . . . happy. I'm not even thinking about the culture wars (however you define those).

I'm reminded of that old Keith Green lyric: "Like a moth to a flame, whenever I hear your name".

nhe,

...and I think that this is why we have the Biblical directives from Joseph, Daniel, Paul, and Jesus to quietly (and VERY intentionally and continuously) press into the lives of others with the gospel.

There are times for proclamation - that is clear - but it's not the biblical default evangelistic strategy, and it's not what we should "appear" to be celebrating.

I can tell you that, especially when thinking of Jesus and Paul, the thought I've never had was just "quietly pressing into the lives of others".

The first thought after I read your statement was of Peter at Pentecost. This was followed by images of Paul at Mars Hill. And John the Baptist at the Jordan. And Jesus riding into Jerusalem on a donkey, to the shouts of the crowd and the waving palm branches.

Of course, we should be gospel at all times, whether quietly or loudly. I'm just not sure that proclamation takes a back seat in Scripture.

Jared - yes - I could have easily added Tebow - in the Philippines though wasn't it?......I'm a fan!

Bill, thanks for the words about common ground. I agree.

I admit there's a cynical aspect to what I said about the culture wars but that note is there because that's true in many cases. It used to be true for me and I have many friends for whom it's still true - I see their Facebook status updates all the time. I don't think it's true of you or Jared that you primarily like his shout-outs because of a "score one for our side!" mentality, nor is it true of all who like Tebow. Maybe not even the majority. But I think the shoe fits many who love Tebow's Jesus shout-outs. And as nhe points out, whether true or not the perception is created and invited by the mere fact of the Jesus-shout-out apropos of nothing, in that context. Like the Hollywood types who took advantage of an awards ceremony to bash Bush apropos of nothing, the already converted love it but few of the unconvinced see it as appropriate and they either get angry or (at best) squirm.

But more than culture wars us-vs-them, things like the public piety in response to questions about diagnosing NFL defenses, and the intentional visible praying in the end zone (if it's really just between you and Jesus can't you do it quietly on the sidelines?), that make me squirm because of Jesus' admonition to keep your actions of piety private (my paraphrase). If Tebow is invited to speak to a group of people on a topic of his choosing, I hope he speaks like Peter at Pentecost or Paul on Mars Hill. When tv crews do special interest stories on him or ask about his personal life or his motivations, I hope he speaks boldly and eloquently about his faith. But when interviewed about football I wish he'd talk about football, and I think so do most non-Christians. Not because they hate Jesus but because they tuned in for football.

Yes, Philippines. My bad. You can see what a huge fan of his I am. ;-)

I haven't read all of the comments because I'm pressed for time and want to get my own thoughts out before responding to others'.

Sorry if I'm going over ol territory.

Is it possible that God is making the Broncos win? Of course it is. And my pastor, a big Broncos fan, will be delighted if that's the case.

I'd be very careful about making that speculation in anything other than that kind-of-academic mode, though. To me, the question feels somewhat like people blaming whatever group of immoral people for the 9-11 attacks, hurricanes, etc.. With no explicit statement from God, I don't like assigning motives to Him.

I love it that an apparently-genuine Christian is having a lot of success. But a lot of genuine Christians wind up sweeping the floors at Wal-Mart, too.

I think that speculating as to the workings of the mind of God is dangerous territory, and it's part of how we wind up with "prosperity gospel" stuff. Not that I'm accusing you of that -- I take an extreme example.

I think it might be better to be thankful for what we know -- a good Christian role model is out there, and he's having a lot of success. Thank God for both of those things.

Will God make his (meaning Tebow's, not God's) team champoins for it? I don't know and hesitate to speculate.

So, yes, it's possible. But without a propet to testify to God's work, I don't think that I'd spend a lot of time thinking about it in that way.

That's my take, anyway.

I didn't see anyone in this or the other thread suggest faith is only a private matter. I never meant to suggest that and I don't think nhe did either. Jesus sure didn't believe that, but he wasn't in favor of showy public displays of piety either.

I just don't equate having a public faith with shoehorning in an out of context Jesus shout-out every time a microphone is in front of one's face, or doing an on-field kneel-down to pray in front of 70K+ people whenever you score a TD. The equivalent of that isn't Daniel praying at his open window, it would be Daniel stopping business in the middle of the king's court or the city square, to do it in front of everyone just to send a message, or some similarly out of place show of his devotion to Yahweh. Was Daniel willing to uncompromisingly rock the boat publicly if necessary? Sure he was. Did he feel the need to hide the fact that he prayed? No - hence the open windows. Did his faith affect his public behavior in a way that let people know he followed the God of Israel - yes it did. But did he go out of his way to publicly flaunt it in unnecessary ways when not forced by circumstance? No, at least not that I can tell.

That doesn't mean I think Tebow is a bad dude or even bad for Christianity. God uses all of us in spite of ourselves, and I'm sure he has and will redemptively use Tebow's public handling of his faith for good. I think Tebow means well and is a great young man, and I root for him on the field and admire him off the field. But I still think the public show is a bad idea, kind of immature and in many cases counterproductive when it's so out of context. Few other than the already-convinced are going to view it positively.

On the other hand America loves a winner, so if his team does keep winning it may become seen by more of the unconvinced masses as kind of an endearing quirk, rather than annoying thing. But that says nothing one way or the other to me about whether it is a good idea in the first place.

nhe, I agree with you at least to the point of saying that such public displays "do harm" to the cause of Christ. I think they are a mixed bag, like many things we do, and therefore they also accomplish *some* good or are used redemptively, in spite of the harm they do. Like I said, God sometimes uses us for good ends in spite of our wackiness or poorly thought-out efforts, and I'm sure that happens sometimes with a Tebow Jesus shout-out. Overall though I think those types of actions are a "net negative" and that the number of unconvinced, non-Christian folks who are further alienated by such displays, far outweighs the number of unconvinced, non-Christian folks who are drawn closer to Christ by such displays. Plus the displays seem counter to the spirit Jesus himself advised us to cultivate, and like you said they can unintentionally misrepresent who Jesus is to the watching world, trivialize what being a disciple of Christ and participating in his Kingdom is all about, etc.

The fact that a good number of Christians love to see it, is almost neither here nor there as far as I'm concerned.

Those are valid questions Bill. First I'll say that I'm not all up in arms about it, despite possible appearances to the contrary from this thread. But being asked in effect "what do you think about this?" I'll volunteer and then defend or explain my thoughts on the issue - at least until I change my mind. In terms of "things that harm the cause of Christ" I'd put this kind of thing pretty far down the list. But being asked what I think of it, I'll give my two cents.

I don't think it's inconsistent to say that someone's particular actions in a certain situation are immature and unintentionally damaging to the cause of Christ, while also saying that the same person is admirable in many ways and recognizing that he is acting out of sincerity and the best intentions. And in my book, sincerity and good intentions from a believer (or from anyone) matter a whole lot toward whether I think they are admirable. I don't think Tebow is a fake - I think he's sold out for Jesus Christ. I think he is a man of his word, I think he has a good work ethic, I think he possesses many good character traits. But lots of people look back from a position of more mature faith (or just more mature adulthood) at things they did in their teens and twenties with great zeal and the best of intentions, and wince. That's how Kurt Warner feels about how he handled what Tebow is going through. It doesn't mean Kurt Warner was a bad guy then and is a good guy now. Nor that he was a terrible role model then. It just means he has grown up a little more, both as a person and as a follower of Jesus, and he sees in hindsight that in his well-intentioned zeal he actually may have done more harm than good.

I don't follow Tebow all that closely, so I mainly know of some video clips I've seen in interviews where he has answered a football related question with "first I want to thank my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ..." and gone on at some length while the interviewer waited for him to finish using up precious air time, so he could get him to hopefully answer at least one question about football before they have to cut away. The impression I have is that this is a fairly common occurrence, but I may be wrong. And the video clips of him "Tebowing" which apparently happens often enough to earn its own nickname. But if he doesn't do those things very often and people are only talking as if he did, then I probably am being too harsh on him. But my opinion of those things, when they are done, remains the same. I understand that in the NFL people do all manner of trivial celebration displays, going back to the days of the Fun Bunch, Billy "White Shoes" Johnson, Mark Gastineau's sack dances and the Icky Shuffle and on up through the theatrics of T.O. and OchoCinco. I get that Jesus shout-outs didn't start with Tim Tebow, and that other players have showed us heads bowed, chest thumps followed by pointing heavenward, making the sign of the cross, and other "God's my homie" signs in the end zone. I'm not a huge fan of any of it, but because of the triviality and silliness of it all combined with the venue it's in, it makes me less, rather than more, in favor of making public displays of religious devotion part of the NFL circus. To me and to many, it trivializes the idea of faith far more than it sanctifies the idea of playing football. And I still maintain without being able to prove, that in the case of unconvinced far more of them are put off by such displays than are attracted by them.

If you're asked about your faith, answer boldly. If a question in an interview implicitly opens the door to talk about your faith naturally ("what motivates you?" or "how do you deal with all the criticism/pressure?"), walk right through that door and tell them how your faith helps you. If you're invited to speak somewhere on a topic of your choosing, be like Paul on Mars Hill if you feel so callled. But if you want to pray, do it quietly and not ostentatiously (and kneeling with bowed head in the EZ after a TD in front of 70K+ is ostentatious in my book, whether you chest thump or not). Now I'm reapeating myself.

....a thought just occurred to me that might sound contradictory. Whereas I'm not a fan of the kneel down prayer in the end zone, I like the point to the loved ones in heaven.

I guess I like it because it gives context to the religious display. It doesn't just say, I'm religious, it says - my faith guides how I view where my loved ones are when they die, and perhaps my faith may even be shaped by that event.

So, to the unbelieving mind it at least says - "that guy seems to have wheels on his faith".

As usual I fall into NHE/Karl's "camp" on this issue. There's a difference between having a "public faith" which I think is a good thing and wearing it on your sleeve. I can't say for certain that Teebow has fallen into the latter trap, which can be at best annoying and at worst harmful, but it sounds like he may have. God can use even that though and I would be the last person to make him try to stop.