- Rick Warren
Thinklings Book Club Discussion One: Chapters 1-2
And so starts the inaugural post for discussion of The Thinklings Book Club. Hope you got a lot out of these first two chapters.
First I'll share some brief thoughts and reflections and maybe quote a passage or two I found particularly helpful or insightful. Then I'll ask some questions designed for feedback or discussion.
1. In the introduction to Part 1, Hoekema writes, "[T]he message of biblical eschatology will be seriously impoverished if we do not include in it the present state of the believer and the present phase of the kingdom of God. In other words, full-orbed biblical eschatology must include both what we might call 'inaugural' and 'future' eschatology" (p.1).
I think this is so important to keep in mind. When we first announced this book, when we first announced just the subject of "eschatology," I got more than one response basically asking, "What difference does it make?" People have a hard time understanding how eschatology can be all that crucial an issue or how it can be practical to their everyday Christian life. Putting aside for the moment the concern I have with "practicality" being a litmus test for important theology, I want to quibble most with the idea that eschatology is just a peripheral or minor subject of the Bible. As Hoekema I believe has demonstrated in these first two chapters, the entire Bible is rife with eschatological tension.
This problem usually results from people thinking of eschatology in terms of "the rapture" or just "what happens at the end." But it is so much more than that. The Old Testament is a building up of eschatological tension, waiting for the Messiah who would bring God's Kingdom onto the earth. Throughout the Gospels, chapter after chapter, Jesus preaches the good news of the Kingdom. That's eschatology, folks.
Whatever happens to your millennial or tribulational or prophetic views, if anything, I would hope that at least some of you will get a better sense of how important a "full-orbed eschatology" is to our understanding of the Bible and its message.
2. On that same note, I liked this line from the first chapter: "From first to last, and not merely in the epilogue, Christianity is eschatology, is hope, forward looking and forward moving, and therefore also revolutionizing and transforming the present" (p.3).
3. On p.7 of Chapter 1, Hoekema begins describing how the eschatological outlook of the NT is embodied in the concept of the kingdom of God. I thought this might be a good place to point out to those who might not know that the phrase "kingdom of heaven" in Matthew's Gospel is synonymous with "kingdom of God." Matthew employs that variation perhaps primarily out of respect for his Jewish audience, a readership that does not write or say the divine name.
This is merely interesting at first glance, but can actually be somewhat helpful in interpretation. Think of how many passages in Matthew's Gospel speaking of "the kingdom of heaven" that might be interpreted with "heaven" in mind -- meaning, the celestial place of Paradise where God lives -- rather than with the very present and very earthly kingdom in mind. Might knowing that "the kingdom of heaven" doesn't necessarily mean "up in the sky" affect your understanding of certain parts of the Gospel?
4. On that same page, Hoekema begins discussing the concept of covenant. This is another important facet to a better understanding of biblical eschatology. Thinking of eschatology in covenantal terms pretty much makes the entire New Testament in some way eschatological.
5. On p.10, Hoekema discusses the aspect of judgment in the Day of the Lord concept. He quotes Amos 5:18: "Woe to you who desire the day of the Lord! / Why would you have the day of the Lord? / It is darkness, and not light."
For some reason, that reminded me of the literary fallacy at work in the very name of the Left Behind phenomenon. When I read the "left behind" passages in the Olivet Discourse (see Matthew 24 especially), it seems fairly clear to me that the ones taken are taken to judgment. Jesus compares to the ones taken by surprise to the ones destroyed in the Noahic flood; he describes his coming like a thief who ransacks the house. The entire thrust of that little passage, context clues and all, indicate that the ones taken are taken to judgment. That means that the ones left are fortunate.
It's good to be left behind! ;-)
6. Both the concepts of inaugurated eschatology and prophetic perspective tie into the eschatological concept commonly called "the already and the not yet." Full preterists and full futurists both miss the balance the NT demands. From Chapter 2:
"The New Testament believer is conscious, on the one hand, of the fact that the great eschatological event predicted in the Old Testament has already happened, while on the other hand he realizes that another momentous series of eschatological events is still to come" (p.13).
7. On p.19, Hoekema differentiates between "the last days" and "the last day". I thought that was really interesting, as well as really important as we parse out how the New Testament teaches an inaugurated eschatology.
8. On p.21, Hoekema quotes George Eldon Ladd: "The church's witness to God's victory in the future is based on a victory already achieved in history. It proclaims not merely hope, but a hope based on events in history and its own experience."
A few things:
First, I think this is an excellent and to-the-point summation of how ?practical? eschatology can be, of how important it can be to the Christian?s daily life. Our eschatology is one of victory, one of hope, one of faith in the kingdom Jesus brought and died to initiate. Our eschatology ought to be rooted in his resurrection. Those are all important things, crucial things ? wouldn?t you say?
Secondly, I?d take this moment to recommend Ladd?s books. In this vein, his The Gospel of the Kingdom is a fantastic little book that really opens up the importance of understanding the kingdom.
Thirdly, I think this quote is important because it touches on how our eschatology ought to be looking back as much as it is looking forward. It was my good friend and fellow Thinkling Michael Asbell who started this whole journey for me with one simple statement made one day when we were both working at the bookstore. He said, ?Our eschatology ought to look back to Jesus? crucifixion and resurrection as much or more than it looks forward to his return.? Mind-opening stuff. The historical events that enacted the atonement are perhaps the most important eschatological events.
Questions for Reflection and Discussion
Now some questions. These don?t all have to be answered. I hope that everyone who?s taking part in the club will come to the discussion with their own thoughts and reflections and questions for the group. And hopefully the conversation will take on a life of its own from there. But if you need some steering or just want a jumping-off place, here are some questions to get y?all thinking. But this isn?t a quiz. I really want our relationship in this discussion to be as co-participants, with me just facilitating and hosting the conversation. Not with me lecturing and quizzing you.
(Two rules: 1) While little debates are perhaps inevitable, no ?arguing? please. The normal rules of comment threads on this site apply ? be kind and respectful. 2) Try to keep thoughts simple and as focused as possible. Let?s remember that not all who are participating are as smart as you. ;-) Let?s let everyone play and let?s all play nice.)
1. We have learned that a biblical eschatology is inaugurated eschatology, one with a proper tension between the already and the not yet. What might the implications be of having a completely ?present? eschatology or a completely ?future? eschatology? What problems might arise from either of these errors?
2. In what ways does Jesus fulfill the eschatological roles of Prophet, Priest, and King? What Scriptures might help us answer?
3. On p.11, Hoekema listed the seven following eschatological realities Old Testament believers looked for for future fulfillment: 1) the coming redeemer, 2) the kingdom of God, 3) the new covenant, 4) the restoration of Israel, 5) the outpouring of the Spirit, 6) the day of the Lord, and 7) the new heavens and the new earth.
Some of these are trickier and more complicated than others, but what Scriptural references in the NT deal with these realities? Which ones have been fulfilled, either fully or partially, already? Which ones are still partially or totally future?
4. Just in these first two chapters, has your understanding of eschatology changed or grown at all? If so, how?
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Next assignment: for next Monday, March 28, read Chapter 3 (approx. 18 pages).
Trackback URL: http://thinklings.org/bloo.trackback.php/1939.
I can give you the First Catechism answers to your second question. Christ is my prophet b/c He teaches me the will of God. He is my priest b/c he died for my sins and continues to pray for me. He is my king b/c he rules over me, the world, and satan and He defends me.
Why do I need Christ as my prophet, priest, and king? As my prophet, b/c I am ignorant by nature; as my priest, in order to pay the penalty for my sins; and as my king, b/c I am weak and helpless.
I think Hebrews addresses each of these offices, but the part of Daniel quoted in our book is a great passage describing Jesus receiving the kingdom. And of course the lines from Isaiah which we sing every Christmas. And the government shall be upon His shoulders.
Jared, your notes are good and you pointed out the practicality of our topic; but I want to throw out a quote from my pastor that good theology is always practical. That's why our topic is practical, b/c it is good theology. I can already see how my daily life needs to be more eschatological than it is.
Raindream, I like your comment above. I guess one way to keep the discussion moving (to get it started?) would be to ask in what ways specifically is a good, biblical eschatology practical?
Already it has caused me to want to learn some Hebrew and Greek, and to also study 'covenant' more deeply.
Biblical eschatology practical? Well, I guess that would depend on if one believes that where one came from, where one is presently and where one is going is important. This one says, YES, it is, and will therefore effect how I live.
Thanks for your post, Jared. Great to get things off and running.
1) One of the beauties of the tension between "present" and "future" eschatology is that the fulfillment that has already come to pass ("present") provides the tangible hope for the "future". If God has been faithful to covenant promises in the past, it stands to reason that He will also be faithful in the future.
If one has a completely "future" view, this hope is lost to some degree.
2) Great answer from the 1st Catechism!
Question re: Jared's point #5:
You mentioned that it seems clear to you that the ones taken are taken to judgement. In vs. 30 and 31, (just a few verses prior to the verses you quoted) the Scriptures speak of the Son of Man coming to gather His elect from the four winds. Would you interpret this as a different event as the event described later later in the chapter?
I was struck by a sermon that pointed out that whenever Israel was in the promised land, God was called the "God of Heaven and Earth" and that whenever Israel was gone from the land, He was just the "God of Heaven". (I spot checked the assertion, but never followed it exhaustively.)
The "future" of this world is that it will be ruled under the kingdom of God. He will be the God of Heaven and Earth. The question is whether the "future" started in ~30AD, ~70AD, or some other date. If the kingdom is here today, then I can live as the subject of the richest, most glorious body of all time. If the kingdom is still only coming, then I am living in the kingdom of this world, and I live behind enemy lines. If our actions are what bring the kingdom, then maybe I should be living more militantly.
So, how should I live? To what goal? That is the question of eschatology to me.
If Israel's obedience and disobedience really did change the Name of God, even changed His claim to the planet He had made, then eschatology makes a huge difference indeed.
Kevin's comments touch on this and this probably addresses question #1, but the Corinthians were a good example of people having a too "future" eschatology. The assistant pastor at my church is currently walking through I Corinthians in Sunday school, and he keeps empasizing the fact that the problems in the Corinthian church were due to their "over-realized eschatology" (his use of those words makes me think he's read this book and others like it). In essence, the Corinthians felt that they had already entered into the "age to come", and this caused many problems with their views on the proper use of the body, relationships to spouses and others in the church, issues of freedom and conscience, etc. I suppose the opposite extreme would be forgetting the fact that Christ has already secured the victory over Satan, which could lead to too much emphasis being placed on our own works.
One of the things that first captured me was the sentence in the first paragraph. "The eschatological is not one element of Christianity, but it is the medium of the Christian faith as such, the key in which everything in it is set."
When Hoekema starts showing the history of looking forward in Genesis 3 and how that looking gets more specific as time moves on. Add to that all the times Jesus and authors refer to the Kingdom being near or at hand. This all becomes very striking to me.
In the lectionary of the Book of Common Prayer the daily lessons in the Old Testament so specifically look to Christ and His redemptive work on the cross. The two together have really driven the point for me.
Such a wonderful thread of proof has been handed down to give us truely great hope in what is being looked to in the present time.
To come to the realization that Christ didn't just die and rise for our redemption but to establish His Kingdom is quite mind-opening. This is so much more than thinking that someday we will be in an abstract place we don't really understand with someone we like to think of as great but we don't really understand all that well. To something far more concret and tangible. God's Kingdom! Looking forward to the new earth when all will be as it should have been in the garden.
In thinking about the questions you have posted. In a "present" eschatology there is no hope and what has been done is finished. While in a "future" eschatology there doesn't seem to be the evidence of fulfillment in what is being looked for or waited on.
I think this post is pretty much my answer for your fourth question.
Having grown up a default "Left Behind" Christian I feel like the doors to the candy store have been opened up. I'm just looking around in amazement and wanting to continue reading. Instead of living in fear of wondering "if I will be ready".
Brian,
I first read this book in the late 80s and it confirmed what I had been coming to on my own. It was the first "amillenial" work I'd ever read and the whole process opened up Scripture in a way that could almost be termed an explosion. What a relief to know that the first principle of Bible study is NOT to "know your dispensations." The best is yet to come for you, my friend.
I know that one's life can't be lived on "I wish" but I wish I had been able to think and speak and ask questions when the revivalist came around with his charts that went clear across the stage and tried to scare us into heaven, or was that out of hell? Maybe it was the hell out of us. I'm talking not just about the church that I was raised in but the denomination that my mom was raised in. I was too young to know what dispensation was and I don't know that anyone in the church thought that there might be an alternative at the time.
In the late 90's I was beginning to understand that there were differing views but I never knew what they were and it wasn't, and hasn't been, my main thrust of study. Since then I've been very leary anytime I've heard anything about the Revelation from the pulpit.
I've actually printed the threads from the Thinklings that deal with eschatology but never found time to read them and get a better understanding. That is why I *really* wanted to participate in this reading. So far I'm very happy that I have and I'm greatful to Jared for devoting so much time to make this possible. My hat is off also the Shrode for his pre discussion posts reagarding eschatological journeys and the meaning of Revelation.
So this morning I open up my Book of Common Prayer for today's readings. And this is part of the second Lesson. It just seem remarkably fitting. It is Hebrews 9 in ESV.
15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.
24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. 25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, 26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, 28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
A quote from the book that is making me think:
Yet Joel seems to predict them as if they were to happen just before the outpouring of the Spirit. ... It would appear that Joel in his prophecy sees as coming together in a single vision events actually separated from each other by thousands of years. (pg 9, para 2)
I want to suspend disbelief on this one. I don't see why he makes this assumption. I am not a literalist at all when it comes to these things. I do not believe that red corpuscles, tongues of fire, and pillars of smoke are going to appear at a critical point in the future. I lean toward believing that these signs already happened, and are descriptive of political upheavals during the decades just after the resurrection.
Hoekema seems here to assume the point he is trying to prove, but maybe later he will clarify this for me. Right now, I don't see any intrinsic reason to invoke "prophetic perspective" on this. I look forward to his explanation.

I still have five pages left in chapter 2 and I'm at work and can't take a lot of time to respond to your great questions. However, I have some thoughts sparked from your first set of notes:
3. Kingdom of heaven/God - much like the use of the phrase Son of Man as opposed to Son of God. Respect for God's name doesn't diminish the Son of Man - same for God's kingdom, which is all of His creation - heaven and earth.
4. Yes! Look at the Bible as the Old Covenant and New Covenant rather than as Testaments. It brings a new perspective to God's Word.
7. I was struck by his assertion that we have been in the last days since the first coming of Jesus. That is how the first Christians looked at things - read 1 Thess and it's all about living for Jesus return. That 2000 years has passed shouldn't change how we live regarding Jesus' return.