"If slavery were still around today, then those of us who claim to be God's children would have to fight against it, even at the cost of our own lives. Right?" I assume that the phrase "if slavery were still around is irony", given that slavery is alive and well in the world. Heck it is alive and well a few miles from my house http://www.danielpipes.org/article/2687
However, since it is primarily something that affects 3rd world not very photogenic people it isn't much on the radar of the media. This page has some useful information and links.
http://www.infoplease.com/spot/slavery1.html

But Harold, that isn't legal slavery. Evil things still happen around the world, but we, the people of the United States, aren't publically condoning most of them.

I agree, Shrode. Slavery as practiced in the States and Europe a century ago is one of the worst evils our country has ever condoned, but abortion seems worst of all to me and pornography is near the top of the list too.

Pornography is something someone -- and I do mean the 'victim' -- chooses to do. (In the case of pornography involving minors I don't even want to debate "choice".) Usually people can make the choice to leave that life; it's difficult, but it can be done. I agree with you that an unborn baby doesn't choose to die so it's a sin. But legalized slavery, under the conditions which America and Europe practiced it, was horrifying and evil as Shrode so aptly described it.

Actually, Jared - no.

Slavery was never condemned in the Bible. We would not, in fact, HAVE to fight against it, no matter what, simply because we are Christian.

If that was the case, slavery would have ceased to exist long, long, long before it did in this country - or in England.

If that was true, Paul would not have bothered to include instructions to slaves in his epistles - instead, would he have not included instructions for revolt? No, I don't think we have a Christian responsibility to end slavery. We have a Christian responsibility to alleviate suffering, love men and women, and share the gospel. The abolition of slavery was the result of revival, and social upheaval.

It's abolition, however, could never have happened without the industrial revolution. Which, in my humble opinion, is why slavery was around so long. People needed it to exist, in order to get enough work done.

I know this comment is going to be VERY unpopular. I don't think that matters, though. I really don't think slavery is BIBLICALLY outlawed - or even discouraged.

Actually, RazorsKiss -- Shrode is the author of this post, not me.

RazorsKiss,
OK, first let me say "Thank you for being a regular reader and commenter."

Second, What does RazorsKiss mean? Without context, I read that name and it scares me a little. :)

Third,
I wondered if anyone would respond this way. RazorsKiss,
slavery in the Bible is very unlike the slavery as practiced in America. Very, very unlike slavery as it was done here. Comparing slavery in Biblical times and American slavery is like comparing flag football to Ultimate Fighting.

Here are just a few differences:
1-American Slavery was based on race. Slavery in Biblical Times (I will call it Roman slavery for shorthand from now on, though I am including OT here as well.) was often because someone had been sold into slavery or sold themselves to pay off debt. There was far more choice involved. Some slaves were captives in war however.

2. Roman slaves were treated fairly well. There was Roman legislation governing the treatment of slaves, and masters who mistreated their slaves could be punished by the state.

3. Roman slaves were often educated. They were the doctors, engineers, accountants, business managers, artisans, musicians, teachers etc... Their masters would pay for their training/education, and then expect that person to pay off the training, or serve in that capacity. Sure some slaves did dishes, laundry, harvesting etc... But many also ran households, paid the wages of other slaves, taught the children etc...

4. Roman slavery was usually temporary. A roman slave was paid a wage and over time could buy his freedom. Some slaves petitioned to remain slaves for life because it was such a good arrangement. (Being far better than poverty.) It also meant permanent, or long term employment. In those days, being a "free laborer" meant you were an independent contractor. There was no guarantee of work or a paycheck from day to day. For many, slavery was a comfortable, and secure arrangement...one that was even desired.

5. Roman slavery was more like indentured servitude. The term "servant" is usually a better translation than "slave" in the Bible. Wayne Grudem (TNTC) says that neither word is totally accurate. He suggests finding a word tht means "semi-permanent employee without legal or economic freedom".

I'm not saying that Roman slavery as practiced was OK. But it's not the same thing as American slavery. Not even close. So to see the Bible mention "slavery" and not condemn is not really a valid comparison. The Bible never condemns specifically child pornography either.

But the Bible does affirm the value and dignity of every human being, and anything that abuses or devalues human beings should be opposed.

It is true that the Bible does not specifically outlaw slavery or call slaves to revolt. But one of the primary teachings of the NT was that this world is not all there is, and it was spiritual reform, not social that is called for by Paul and the other epistle writers.

In the OT polygamy is never specifically condemned either, yet as we look back at the OT, we can see that God tolerated this, pointing forward to his perfect will, which was one man and one woman. Not every injustice known to man is specifically condemned in Scripture. Yet by using reason and Biblical principles, I think we can see what those injustices are.

In Amos, the prophet condemns Israel for not standing up for the poor, downtrodden, the fatherless and the widow...those who were being oppressed by those in power.

Surely, you would agree that blacks enslaved and abused, for no other reason than their race, are a part of that category? And so yes, I think the Bible (and Biblical principles )does call on us to oppose it, if we lived during that time. (And we should oppose and fight against slavery in modern times as well...and all other abuses against human beings created in God's image.)

RazorsKiss,
Apologies, but I don't think I responded to everything you said. I'll try again. (And after all this time I spent on this... please respond. :)

Slavery was never condemned in the Bible. We would not, in fact, HAVE to fight against it, no matter what, simply because we are Christian.

This is primarily what I was responding to primarily, in comment 6 above. And so I humbly disagree...agreeably of course!

If that was the case, slavery would have ceased to exist long, long, long before it did in this country - or in England.

Again, I disagree. There are many things condemned in the Bible that continue. Just because something is condemned by the Bible does not mean that it would end. (Or else why are adultery and murder still around?) People sin. And even people who "claim" to follow Scripture, disobey it. So it does not follow that if slavery were condemned, that it would have ceased. In fact, I think that injustice, and oppression are condemned by the Bible and slavery of Africans by Europeans is a clear violation of many Scriptural principles and commands.

If that was true, Paul would not have bothered to include instructions to slaves in his epistles - instead, would he have not included instructions for revolt? No, there are no instructions to revolt. But as I said, Roman slavery was not the same as American slavery. Plus revolt was not (and is not?) the Christian way. Rather Paul and other epistle writers seek to reform the heart one person at a time. See Paul's letter to Philemon...an appeal for Philemon to forgive and free Philemon's slave Onesimus.

No, I don't think we have a Christian responsibility to end slavery. We have a Christian responsibility to alleviate suffering, love men and women, and share the gospel. The abolition of slavery was the result of revival, and social upheaval.

OK. If we have a responsibility to alleviate suffering, doesn't that include opposing slavery? Was abolition the result of revival and social upheavel? Yes, among other causes. And don't forget the Christian preachers who condemned it from their pulpits!

Its abolition, however, could never have happened without the industrial revolution. Which, in my humble opinion, is why slavery was around so long. People needed it to exist, in order to get enough work done.

Maybe so. But there was more to it than that. Keep in mind that they didn't have industrial technology in the north either...yet slavery was outlawed.

I know this comment is going to be VERY unpopular. I don't think that matters, though. I really don't think slavery is BIBLICALLY outlawed - or even discouraged.

Maybe it will be an unpopular comment...but you are right it doesn't matter. :) One of the purposes of this site, and the dialogue under "comments" is to discuss different ideas and points of view. I think others may think as you, and I was glad for the opportunity to discuss some of these issues at length.

Oh, and as far as slavery being BIBLICALLY outlawed...
I think injustice is condemned, and so slavery being a grave injustice should be included in that category. As far as being discouraged...Biblical text about their neither being slave nor free... I think goes toward discouraging it's practice, or at least aboloshing the mindset that there are differences between the classes. And as I mentioned, Paul does seem to be asking for Onesimus freedom in his letter to Philemon, so slavery is being discouraged in at least one instance. :)

Sorry Jared - just used to seeing you being the primary poster :D

Shrode: I believe I'm going to take a post-length treatment of this, as a reply. I appreciate the reply, though. Very thoughtful.

I do see what you mean - but my main sticking point was that it was a Christian duty to end slavery. ie: specifically mandated by the Bible - or else, it wouldn't be specifically a Christian duty, would it?

I don't disagree, in many ways - but I disagree that it is a biblically mandated necessity. I would, however, agree that Christians *should* do so - but not that it is a necessity. Believe me - I'm not a KKK member, or anything ofthe sort. In fact, I'm from Arizona - I just live in Mississippi.

My point of contention, to state it another way, is that it is a specifically Christian duty, outlined by the Bible - which is what it sounded like you were saying.

Anyway - more in a blog post. Be patient, though. I'm not at home this evening, so it may be late this night, or tomorrow morning before I can get to it.

Once again, thanks for the thoughtful response. I've already received at least one email telling me I'm a very brave man for responding that way. lol.

As for the name: It's a holdover from adolescent days, whereI had to come up with a pilot name for an old PCjr game, called Elite Plus. I've kept it, because it's delightfully good for online games - and it has SO many cool connotations for an apologist - Occam's Razor, for one.

Besides - it's unique - and I've used it for almost 15 years. I dunno if I COULD give up up, at this point :D

Anyway, I'll get back to you about your response.

Shrode, I found your reply absolutely brilliant! Not to mention informative about the ins and outs of Roman Slavery. (I knew some of that -but not nearly all)

RK, I see your point. But being a denizen of the south I may have to smack ya for your "I just live in Mississippi " Way to humorously keep that stereotype rolling...

Thanks blestwithsons. I adapted the above comments into an article that I will post later.

Razorskiss,
I look forward to your post. I must say that I'm pretty sure that you are making a good point...I'm just too dim to understand it right now. :) I look forward to further explanation. Thanks!

Except, well... I live in Mississippi :D

There's still a wee bit of prejudice, in the "country folk".

Trust me, I see it all the time.. Going up to my girlfriend's parent's house, you pass the leader of the KKK's house - who hosts David Duke every year, and flies a 20 foot long confederate flag over top of his house.

I was married to a Georgia girl - it happens there too.

I lived in Alabama - worst place out of all 3. Stereotypes? They usually exist for a good reason, actually - even though not everyone from the south is that way. Only a very small minority - but they are bad enough.

Slavery - a Biblical Response?
Note, first - before you go ANY farther. This post is a specific answer for this post, and the material found within it's comments. It is nothing more - and nothing less.
It is neither an apologetic for the institution of slavery, nor an endorsem...

There's my post, Shrode, trackbacked. Hope you get what I mean. I do agree with you, incidentally. just not with your question :D

Just to let you know... (I'm the gf RK mentioned...)I no longer live within 15 miles of the said KKK guy! He's off in prison...and some black guys are empting his place and burning everything...it's great. I haven't shared this with RK yet. I guess I should let him know!