It's ironic that God created Masculinity, and yet we talk about His church being feminized. We've allowed a secular culture and society to define masculinity for us. Even men in the church buy into it.

Men don't want to be perceived as "weak", regardless of the fact that we are. We want to be perceived as "in control" when in fact we aren't. Masculinity in the world's eyes is a denial of Truth. It's an illusion. Jesus said to Paul, "My strength is made perfect in weakness." Paul got it. He said, "I'll boast in my infirmities."

I'm so with you in that last post. It's time for men to stand up and hold each other accountable for leadership and for living God-drenched lives.

On the other hand, I was eating at a restaurant last night, and right there a couple of tables over was a group of men from a local church studying the Bible.

I hope I don't have many hot button issues, but this, as anyone who might remember any comments I have made in the past can tell you, is one of them. Women and the pastors they fawn over run most evangelical churches. And when they pine for more male leadership, that is rarely a call for us to actually lead, but is usually code for us to just get with their program.

Back when the men were usually the sole bread winners, women shaped the churches because they had the time to do so. Pastors let them get away with it because they saw all these dedicated women working for the church, while those horrible, sluggard men would never even think of giving up their full time jobs to work alongside the women. Somehow, the pastors just couldn't get it. And here we are.

I'm not saying we men are all, or even mainly, innocent. But I am saying that folks who call on us to "man up" are usually ignoring our legitimate gripes, and aren't asking the church women, and the favoite pastors of the church women, to make legitimate adjustments in how things get done.

You can say "men suck" all you want to. But I've just known too many men who were too dedicated to Christ and his Church, and way underappreciated for it, for me to believe that. And I've known way too many Dana Carvey-esque church ladies to believe that women actually have any real "righteousness advantage" over us.

Sorry. That's the way I see it, and I think it needs saying. Peace.

I think it can vary by denomination, or even church by church.

In the reformed circles I have walked in, over-feminization hasn't been that much of a problem from what I can tell. If anything, many of those churches have been over-masculine in my view and there has been a dearth of opportunities for women to express themselves, or for men to be in touch with "the feminine."

On the other hand, in a mainline church we attended for several years the men were largely checked out (with a few notable exceptions) and the women pretty much did everything.

And in our current church there seems to be a pretty good balance although if you dipped into any one activity at a given time you might think we skewed in a particular direction (i.e. we have a men's shooting event and men's canoe trip but we also have men involved in a prayer ministry that is largely female-led, and 60% of our men are involved in small group Bible studies with other men).

Those are just a few examples from personal experience. I could add more, each different from the next, and I'm sure so could the rest of you.

Bob

Good point. What are the "legitimate gripes" and "legitimate adjustments?" How would our program be different from "their program?" These questions are critical, since there are few men anymore who are sole breadwinners, and the proportions remain the same.

In my church I have not seen this problem but it may be because I've been just too thick to notice. We have a lot of small groups packed with men, including Bible studies. We do have some activities aimed at men, but mostly they are Relational Development groups where the purpose is purely to deepen relationships between the men as a community and God. There are always guys waiting to get in.

Frankly I'm sick of man-bashing. It's another secular cultural thing we've bought into. But if this is a problem, how do we combat it? There are so many broken men in dire need of restoring their true masculinity beyond the "macho" facade.

Bob,

Thanks for your comment. I'm not ready to retract my "man up" statement, but I do have some comments/questions/clarifications.

But I am saying that folks who call on us to "man up" are usually ignoring our legitimate gripes, and aren't asking the church women, and the favoite pastors of the church women, to make legitimate adjustments in how things get done.

I'll be glad to ask them. But I don't know what legitimate adjustments need to be done. I don't feel like my church is feminized at all (it's run by men, every man jack of them is a hunter and has his office stuffed with trophies, etc). But I know lots of guys feel that way. This goes along with the post I wrote earlier that I referenced.

What do you want us to do about the problem if it exists?

That's not a loaded question. I am genuinely interested in what you think.

You can say "men suck" all you want to. But I've just known too many men who were too dedicated to Christ and his Church, and way underappreciated for it, for me to believe that.

So have I. Some of the best people I know are men.

But I've also known a lot who don't do what they are supposed to, abandon their families, etc. I've seen the awful effects of that (IN THE CHURCH).

Men don't suck. But some do.

I appreciate the ones who are living the way they should. I know lots are.

Bill,

Thanks for picking up on my post. I pray it gets some men talking--and getting off their March Madness butts and doing something about it.

Bill,

Thanks for your comment. I'm not ready to retract my "man up" statement, but I do have some comments/questions/clarifications.

It's at least good to be taken seriously, Bill. Thanks.

But I don't know what legitimate adjustments need to be done. ...

What do you want us to do about the problem if it exists?

Time and space do not permit a complete answer. Here's the short list:

1) Evangelical preachers, teachers, Sunday School lit. writers: Stop the man bashing. Just stop it already. I was visiting a fundamentalist church a while back. The pastor was preaching on letting our lights shine. Suddenly, appropo of absolutely nothing, he says, "And the reason our children aren't shining their lights is that we don't have any fathers with wicks in their candles." If you find the metaphor offensive, it was his, not mine. And didn't say we don't have enough fathers. He said we don't have any. And alot of the men in the congregation said, "Amen!" And I find this to be completely typical. Just in case it needs to be said, he didn't bother to criticize the mothers.

2) How about some evenhandedness? If the year was 1950, yes, the women would be the ones not getting a fair shake these days. Know what? 1950 was over a half a century ago. The days when every woman was supposed to be Donna Reed vaccuming the living room in heels are long gone. Exhibit A: Heard not too long ago a sermon series on marriage. I won't mention the preacher's name because you would all know him and, otherwise, I have a great respect for him myself. So, to the men, he says, "Men, your wife might have, through her own selfishness, or anger, or callousness, destroyed all your hopes dreams in life. All of them. Love her anyway." Next week, yes, he does challenge the women, but not nearly to that extent, and absolutely bends over backwards explaining that "submission" doesn't mean always doing what you're told. Again, I find this typical. Exhibit B: Compare every Mother's Day sermon ("Oh you wonderful saints of God!") with every Father's Day sermon ("You pieces of filthy pond scum!") you have ever heard. I think any man who sits through a typical Father's Day sermon and then comes back to church next week deserves some kind of special certificate suitable for framing or something!

3) Re-balance the music. How about "Onward Christian Soldiers" every once in a while to balance out these choruses that sound like they were written by some twelve year old girl asking Jesus to be her boyfriend?

4) Bible studies should probably be mostly men's only and women's only. When you mix them together, the teacher should always remember (and here's where I duck) women talk more than men, faster than men, and sooner than men. It's just the facts. Alot of those sluggardly men who aren't participating are just waiting for some air space. And if they are under 50 years olld, waiting for the girls to go first has been beaten into their heads since they were toddlers. I've been there!

5) And as for what gets studied, yes, how to have the perfect family life and raise your kids to be geniuses and how to (shudder) communicate with you spouse is important. But instead of one more study on these things that we study to death, how about something less emo, like the trinity, eschatology, Christian politics, science and religion, Christian ethics in the business world, or ....

6) Can't say it enough: Carpenters for Christ or Habitat for Humanity. In my experience, men will come out of the woodwork (no pun intended) for these things. Every church should have a project going on with one of thes organizations for at least half of every year.

I could go on a little more, but I had better stop.

But I've also known a lot who don't do what they are supposed to .... I've seen the awful effects of that (IN THE CHURCH).

Yep. And we talk about it ad naueam. What about some of the pain women cause? Ever hear anyone gossip in a church? No, men aren't hapless victims. But women aren't any more saintly. And my comment about the "men suck" thing is appropriate because one of you Thinklings guys has said that very thing on this blog. Sorry. But it's true.

Well, I had better shut up for now. Thanks for listening.

Bob, thanks. I'll answer your comment in full later.

But wanted to deal with this:

But women aren't any more saintly. And my comment about the "men suck" thing is appropriate because one of you Thinklings guys has said that very thing on this blog. Sorry. But it's true.

I have no doubt. It was probably me. You must know that I didn't mean that ALL men suck.

I'm a man, for crying out loud.

We are both passionate about this, so I'll need to be careful. But my compassion for the "plight of men" in the church has dried up. Maybe we're being picked on too much (I don't feel that way. It may just be your church). But the minute a dad abandons his family, draws a gun on his wife, calls here a f-ing wh-re, etc . . . I lose my compassion.

We are different than women. Maybe that's why I feel this way. I was a (poor) athlete in high school. I tried hard at least. But I remember that I learned "no excuses" - and found myself doing things I never thought I could do.

We need to, as men, quit worrying about whether people are talking bad about us. We need to adopt a "no excuses" mentality.

Again, I fear this conversation is going to become unfruitful. But I am as passionate about it as you are, of that I'm sure. And I have a valid opinion, and valid points, and I stand by them.

I think I'm right, in other words.

I realize you disagree.

I'll write more later. I didn't disagree with everything you wrote, by the way.

Thank-you, Bob. I always appreciate your comments as they are some of the most refreshingly honest ones on the blog.

I'm so with you on the Father's Day sermons, and on so many sermons aimed at men. As I tried to articulate in my last comment, but not as well as you, I'm tired of men being caricatured as big galumphing dolts with whom women have to find a way to cope.

Men are in great pain today from deep father-wounds, and it's true that the church offers little support beyond scolding. Simply yelling "Man-up" helps nothing, and yet, somebody's got to do just that to get the ball rolling.

How? O.K., say we agree to stop the bashing. What next? How do we begin?

And thanks, Les, for your graciousness to Bob.

Bob, my last comment demonstrates a problem, not with men, but with me. I'm a jerk.

I apologize.

I will probably let you and Les hash this topic out.

Bill!! No Wait!! Come Baaaaack! Repeat after me...

Bill is not a jerk...
Bill is not a jerk...
Bill GOOD.

Seriously though. I'm frustrated on both sides of this thing. I just don't know what to do. I share your frustration, Bill, with men who have indeed shirked their duties as spiritual leader of the family. I shirked mine and lost a marriage. I'm equally frustrated with churches who follow the patterns already mentioned. The inertia is titanic.

After reading a couple of books by Gordon Dalby ("Sons of the Fathers" and "Healing the Masculine Soul") and Robert McGee ("The Search for Significance") I am developing a seemingly God given burden for ministry in the healing of men like me. I grew up raised by a single, very religious, very strict, very over-protective and over-bearing mother who hated men. I don't know how I didn't end up gay, but I have other serious relationship issues that God has been working with me on. He's healed a lot, and there's a long way left to go.

I think there are very few men out there who haven't been wounded by a wounded father either in neglect or abuse, whether intentional or not. While the same may be true for women, there are a lot of support resources for them.

I really want to know what to do!

Bill and Les,

First, thanks for the opportunity for some give and take. I wish there was more of this on the blogosphere, even at Thinklings. Maybe I could find more if I wasn't such a jerk?

Speaking of which, Bill .... :)

Honestly, I don't know exactly what was happening at your keyboard, but I thought you came across at about the same "intensity level" as I did. So I didn't think you were a jerk at all. Unless maybe I was a jerk too. Waitaminute. Are you calling me a jerk???? Well, you'd better "Man-up" girlie-man, 'cause I'm gonna ... Never mind.

Les,

Thank-you, Bob. I always appreciate your comments as they are some of the most refreshingly honest ones on the blog.

I didn't know anyone cared. sniff sniff :) Really, though, thanks!

Men are in great pain today from deep father-wounds, and it's true that the church offers little support beyond scolding. Simply yelling "Man-up" helps nothing, and yet, somebody's got to do just that to get the ball rolling.

Point taken, to a certain extent. By way of analogy, take a very young single mom trying to turn her life around and going to a church ... and getting promptly dumped on. What should the pastor say? "Look, so what if the married women all think you're after their husbands? What if the single women all laugh at you? What if the single men all run from you? You should be in church, worshipping God, every Sunday. And so should your kid. And that's that. So do it and stop complaining." Pretty harsh, right? And yet, strictly speaking, the pastor would be right .... sort of. She needs to be involved in church. Right? But something's obviously wrong here and it is 1) if you say the right thing in the wrong way, you're still communicating the wrong thing and 2) any pastor who's worth his salt will encourage her to keep coming to church, and will find a way to tell his congregation that their poor treatment of her isn't going to happen anymore.

It's the same thing with men. Yep, they should be contributing to church, regardless. So there you go, case closed. Nope. Because they just aren't going to as long as they have to listen to a bunch of man bashing, and as long as they are told that their family "authority" really means that the wife is the ultimate family decision maker. Just ain't gonna happen. Touchstone had a special issue on fatherhood a few years back. One quote from one article -- can't remember the name or the author -- has really stuck with me. Something like, "Men are wrong to abandon the church. But those who have made the church a place of misery for them have done far worse."

Someone is bound to say that the analogy is unequal because the girl is just a girl but the men can, well, Man-up. I say no. A thousand times no. If you aren't going to give someone the respect they are due, it will take alot of effort for them to show up at all, and they just will never be able to put their heart into it. It's this way for man, woman, child, minority, majority, whatever. Fair is fair. Period. Nothing more to be said.

Now, to really get to your question: If a church wants more participation from the men, I would suggest inviting instead of ... hmmm ... nagging. And here's how it would go: Stop the man bashing. Stop telling the men that their wives get to make all the decisions in the family. Start a Carpenters for Christ project. (There's also a group that refurbishes cars for the elderly, single mothers, etc.) Start a Bible study on Christian business ethics or something that directly impacts the lives men have to lead. And then see what happens. If a church does all that and the men still don't turn around, I'll admit I'm wrong, at least in that congregation.

Good, Bob. That's what I mean. Thanks. Those are concrete things that can be done. Given that I would be prepared for a slow start-up though. Men aren't going to jump in right away without good cause to trust. That's going to take time.

I think you need a VERY solid core group of men with the same goal in mind to start out. One guy can't do it. Whatever projects those men undertake, they will need to come together at another time to develop their relationships with each other. They will need to hold each other accountable for their personal lives and behavior and support each other in prayer and action. This has to be done ON PURPOSE with the goal in mind that, "We're going to do whatever it takes to become spiritually intimate with each other." Otherwise, it will eventually degrade into just another project that guys are eventually just too busy for. You've got to stand up to the Enemy in this, because he's going to do everything he can to take it out.

And, like it or not, wives are going to have to support. That's THEIR Scriptural directive. If they want their men to be active in the church, they're going to have to give serious study and practice to God's family hierarchy. If they're unwilling to, it's really not a church anyway. Not in Christ's sense. Some critical healing has to take place in both men and women regarding their roles and how to mend the brokenness that prevents them.

If I'm wrong or missing something, please respond. I'm really serious about this, and can use some guidance in this discussion.

Les,

I think you're exactly right. Yes, men do need the kind of connection you are talking about. It will be vital. And they won't jump on this bandwagon right off the bat. This is kind of where I run out of things to say. Much bitter experience has shown me that I am not much of an inspirer or leader. (Notice how all men are supposed to be gifted with the spritual gift of leadership? Another one of my gripes, but anyway ...) But it's got to be done!