Amen Jared. Very well said, I think this needs to be said a lot more often. Sometimes in bible study I start to squirm in my seat from hearing "our church this, our church that, pastor is doing this, how great is pastors leadership," etc...all well and good for them, but thats not what its about.

Interesting.

When extrapolating meaning from scripture, it is much helpful to first ask, "What does this say about Jesus?" before jumping into the "So, then, how should I be different?"

While it is so simple, I often cloud my study with how-to meanings or illustrations before trying to discover Jesus in the passage.

Pointing to Jesus, however, is certainly more simple, relatively, in situations of the Bible where Jesus is physically present. It is more difficult finding Jesus in those scriptures where He is not explicitly mentioned.

"Therefore, in view of God's mercy, present yourselves as living sacrifices; this is your spiritual act of worship. Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind." Ro 12:1-2

This passage, spiritually, has Jesus all over it, but it isn't so easy, here, to boil things down to "Jesus forgives adultery" - at least on its face.

I'm not arguing, but thinking out loud. It still must be about Jesus. How does one get there from a passage such as this?

Quaid, in my post, I had mainly in mind the Gospels, but you're right, that as texts become less explicitly about Jesus, what we glean from them can trend away from Jesus more easily.

Given the verse you cited, I would say two things:
1) First, we acknowledge that such a living sacrifice and transformation is only possible because of Jesus. He then becomes the focus of this "human potential."
2) Secondly, the focus of "well, then how do I do this?" should be on Jesus as well. What did Jesus teach about how to live? And all the while we're figuring that out, we trust that it is not our doing that works the sacrifice and the transformation, but Jesus doing it by his grace through our faith.

In other words, I'd never deny there are things to do. You don't get discipled by osmosis! ;-)
But as obvious as it sounds, and as small a difference as it seems, the difference between trusting in and focusing on our works and trusting Jesus and focusing on His is ginormous.

Great job on this one!

Amen. Jesus IS salvation. That's my life message. Preach on.

I also pray that this comment thread doesn't wind up saying that "Well.......not really....What about...."

Heh. iMonk, it's already happened. A slightly different version of this post originally appeared at BCC is Broken, and one guy chimed in to say that maybe we should not necessarily focus on Jesus, since he's just one member of the Trinity, but focus on the richness of the triune God instead.

By way of response, I told him to workshop that. The next time someone comes to you and says they're lost, hurting, or in need of help, what are you going to say to them? I asked. Are you going to talk to them about Jesus? Or are you going to tell them to go reflect on the richness of the Trinity?

We would not know or experience God as He fully is without Jesus as the point of entry. That somebody could quibble with that assertion confuses me.

Jared

Wonderful post. This is something we all need to hear often and I hope to try to live this out more in my own teaching of my class.

All that being said, I did have a question (you know me, always looking for balance). You stated "o the point of that story is not “commerce and temple don’t mix,” because up until that point, commerce and temple had to mix for the temple system to work. No, the point of that story is that Jesus replaces the temple system."

I do agree that Jesus came to replace the temple system, and was Himself the replacement of the sacrificial system just as we ourselves as His children are the replacement of the temple. And I know you aren't discounting secondary/ancillary applications. But I do think that, while "commerce and temple don't mix" may not be the point, Jesus was justifiably angry at the way commerce and temple were mixing here. Which is certainly a message to all of us (and a message that still keeps Jesus central - the temple was His. Not ours. Just as we, as the temple of the Spirit, are His, and not our own).

Just ruminatin'. Thoughts?

That was really good to hear!

De, I know exactly what you're getting at. Yeah, I'm not discounting secondary/peripheral implications/applications at all. They're there, absolutely.

In fact, I wanted to add one or two comments clarifying my take on the temple cleansing a bit, but I didn't mainly because I thought they'd end up a sidetrack detracting from my main point.

Yeah, the truth is, "commerce and temple" don't mix can be an application there. I don't mean to say it's not an implication of the cleansing, especially since Jesus says all that stuff about "den of thieves" and what-not.
I see that as an extension of his declaring judgment upon Israel. Factor in the curse of the fig tree, the prediction of Jerusalem's destruction, the pronouncing of woes, and even that mustard seed saying (b/c "this mountain" that could be thrown into the sea was likely a reference to the temple mount).

So as far as the commerce angle is substantive -- and it is -- I think it is a reflection of the corruption of the system, not necessarily a judgment upon the existence of the system itself. Just as the Pharisees, by design, were meant to be teachers and keepers of the Mosaic Law -- a good thing! -- but were whitewashed tombs at heart.

I hope that makes more sense. I didn't elaborate on it in the post itself, again, because I just thought it'd be a contextual sidenote apart from what I was really getting at. But I did anticipate questions about my take, so thanks for following up.

[useless post]

I agree!

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Thanks Jared

That makes sense.

I needed to hear this today. I am weary of how we look at the scriptures and only see a moral lesson, or a guide for better living, or a step that we need to do to be more spiritual. In effect, we have divorced Jesus from the scriptures. Our pastor is wont to say that the moral "rules" and "guidelines" given in the N.T. are "life producing". I almost get where he's going but then I just want to scream "No! Jesus is life producing". Once you're removed Jesus as the central figure from which everything else flows then we become just hollow men.

The point of the Beatitudes is that that list is what the kingdom of Jesus looks like. Those are the promises of Jesus to those who will enter his kingdom

I'd also say the Beattitudes were spoken by Jesus to take away any doubt of their need for a savior. And the same for us post-Resurrection Christians. As you said Jared, the Beattitudes are not some high moral ground to aspire to and then fill us with guilt when we don't measure up. Instead, they should drive us to Jesus as we realize our complete unworthiness to be called His.

Yeah, man, yeah.

And I see the Beatitudes, further, as promises. Some people read "Blessed are the . . ., for they shall . . ." and think "Oh, I better do such-and-such, so I can get such-and-such."

I read the Beatitudes and see Jesus promising those things to people who enter the kingdom. So it's not that I can act a certain way to get that stuff, but that when I enter the kingdom, Jesus promises mercy, justice, seeing God, being called Sons of God, etc. I think that's awesome, because it actually makes do-able, because God does it!

Hi Jared. I am a new reader of the Thinklings.

I have a question. If the point is Jesus, then how is it that we are suppsed to have a "relationship" with him? I consider myself a former Christian (accepted Jesus as a youngster at Church camp, was very active in the Church all of my life [I'm 47 now] spent my whole adult life seeking after the Lord, memorizing, meditating, praying, beseeching him to make himself "real" to me, etc.), but about two years ago I realized that I cannot have a relationship with someone with whom I cannot interact. I woke up to understanding that the "warm fuzzies" that I THOUGHT indicated that his Spirit was bearing wittness with my spirit just didn't take the place of an actual relationship with someone.

So, I decided to stop searching for that illusive Savior. My wife and I parted ways (there's a whole book in that statement), she divorced me, and I started a new, secular life.

Why does He hide from us? How are we supposed to relate to him? If he loves us THAT much, why does he just give us a book (the Bible) and say "Read this, and I'll get back to you at the rapture." That's love? Would you do that to your child? (and "If you, then, though you are sinful, know how to give good gifts to our children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!" -- Matthew 7:11)

And don't get me wrong; I WAS saved! (If we're holding to Eternal Security, I'm in, becuase I sincerely DID receive Jesus as my savior and trusted him [and only him] as the payment for my sins.) I lived honestly before the Lord, coming to him continually, repenting of my sins, trusting him for my salvation. But I ran out of faith. Faith is too hard. It's just emptiness. It's hollow hoping for something that never happens.

"Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus." --Philippians 4:6-7

I can tell you that in my life, that verse is simply not true. I know-- that's blasphemy. But there WAS NO PEACE that guarded my heart. Honestly, there is much more peace and contentment NOW, since I have given up the empty search.

Ask, seek, knock. My knuckles got worn out. If He was leaving the 99 sheep in search of this one lost lamb, he must need a compass or something because I'm here and he's not.

Anyway, I guess I just get carried away when I start thinking about it. There is still a lot of pain. I understand that I'm kind of invading your blog here, so there may be a better venue than this to discuss it.

Great! I wrote along these lines here:

http://therevolutionnetwork.blogspot.com/2006/08/what-difference-does-it-make.html

I've also linked to this blog, too. I really enjoy the content here. Blog on!

Jesus to Cleopas and friend:

And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself. -Luke 24:27

Hi Matthew

I know your response was directed to Jared, but I did want to chime in here. I can't exactly relate to what you've written but I do thank you for your honesty. And I'm sorry that you and your wife split up; I would imagine that that was a very hard thing to go through. Was it because of your lost faith, or for other reasons (obviously, you don't have to tell us - I am just wondering)?

Bottom line - I don't have any great wisdom for you, but I will pray for you today. Jesus once said “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

I pray that you will believe again. I'm sure Jared and others can give you a lot better insight than I have.

Thanks for commenting! Stick around - Thinklings is a fun place.

Matthew, I really want to respond to your comment/questions, but won't have time to do so with the thoughtfulness you deserve probably until tomorrow night. Please check back, as I promise to do my best.
Just didn't want you to feel ignored in the interim . . .

Jared, thanks.

God's there. Whether we realize it or not, whether we recognize it or not, whether we feel it or not, the reality doesn't change. Matthew, you don't talk like a guy who has completely lost his faith, you sound like a guy calling out, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Take care & God bless

Matthew,

you said, "I ran out of faith. Faith is too hard. It’s just emptiness. It’s hollow hoping for something that never happens."

Not knowing anything about your life or what it is you were hoping for, I can only share what I have found to be true in my own life.

Often times I pray earnestly for something and feel that no matter how hard I pray I get nowhere. The funny thing is that when I turn instead and ask God to show me what HE has to show me, regardless of what I am seeking answers for, He inevitably suprises me with conviction. He always begins with me. When I am frustrated with someone else and come to him in prayer, he places me in front of that spiritual mirror (James 1:21-25) and says, "If you wish to trust Me with this, you must also trust Me with what you see here." And it usually ain't pretty.

And as I look intently into the mirror we all hate to love, concentrating on what I see there and not all around me, those other things fade into the background for a time. Whenever God picks a time to reveal what I'm to glean from that situation, I find that He either worked it out without me, protected me from making a terrible mistake, or shows me why I was wrong in either my attitude or action.

Peace doesn't always come when and where I want it, but eventually, after all my screaming, crying, and writhing in pain, it falls silently when I least expect it and never how I envision it arriving. (and unfortunately, it is never permanent for me)

I, too, will pray for you. Despite your giving up on God, I still believe that He will never give up on you or you wouldn't be reading this blog, let alone posting on it.

"May peace now find you, as the butterfly lits on the most fragile of blossoms."

Jared,

I am constantly humbled by you. I know I'm not that much older than you, but I have to admit that I don't usually expect to see such spiritual depth and maturity from those my younger.

I've always fallen into the interpretation of the WTIA passage that you talk about—avoiding hyposcrisy. I've heard this passage also used to argue that the Death Penalty is no longer valid (but I never accepted that application). What you've said about this mostly being about Jesus' forgiveness of the woman, and by extension us, is quite simply, brilliant. it is also brilliantly simple.

These days, some people stil have a hard time accepting that God can and will forgive all our sins. And I think Adultery may be #1 on the "Non-forgivable Sins Hit Parade."

I have told people that every passage in the Bible is about Jesus, but I have to confess that I don't always start from there when I'm reading scripture. Thanks for the reminder.

Thanks for this post. As I enter into my last week of teaching daily Bible studies to kids at camp, this is a good reminder to make sure that Jesus is the focus when I teach the campers.

And I think Adultery may be #1 on the “Non-forgivable Sins Hit Parade.”

In some churches, the "other unforgivable sin" is divorce.

Ellen, Yup! I have often said that Baptists (of which I used to be one) love folks who have come form all kinds of backgrounds. They embrace Former alcoholics, former drug dealers, former murderers, former satanists . . . you get the point.

But if you happen to be divorced, you are anathema. They'll let you come to church, but you will always be considered a second-class Christian, even if the divorce came before your conversion. Now, I'm not talking about restrictions on holding Church Office (Elder or Deacon) because I believe those restrictions are set by Scripture.

Huh?

If anything, churches today (including Baptist churches) speak too little against divorce.

I'm floored by the last two comments. I'm not doubting the anecdotal evidence you have both seen, and I'm not calling anyone who's been divorced "anathema".

But the divorce rate among Christians is just as bad as among non-Christians. Our churches are cram-packed full of people who have been divorced.

Again, if you're divorced, please don't miss my point and get offended by this comment. My point is not that divorced people can't be forgiven (I fully believe they can and are) or that they can't still minister (I'm with Calvinator on the fact that there are a few Scripture-based restrictions, though) - My point is that the - on the whole and allowing for plenty of exceptions, of course - our churches don't really stand against divorce.

Now, a church that holds a pre-conversion divorce against someone, or a Biblically allowed divorce (such as in the case of adultry of one of the parties) needs to read-up on grace. And read this post.

Hope I don't sidetrack us. I tend to do that. . .

Hey, Matthew, Jared here. If you're still reading, thanks for waiting. I'm not sure how well I can really answer your essential question, but I'll give it a shot.

You asked:
If the point is Jesus, then how is it that we are suppsed to have a “relationship” with him?

I would say that, firstly, that this "personal relationship with Jesus" thing, while certainly not wrong in intention, has led to plenty of confused wannabe disciples over the years. I'm a believer in individual election, and therefore a believer in "personal salvation," but there is a point, I think, at which the whole "personal Jesus" thing actually obscures the real thrust of life in God's kingdom.

You mention going to church, but a part from it being something you "did," I wonder how committed to community growth you were. Was your church involvement more about you developing your personal faith or was it about growing together with other believers in corporate discipleship efforts?
You didn't elaborate, and I obviously don't know you one bit, so anything I speculate about here in order to attempt answering your question is just that -- speculation. I hope you won't take it personally.

You mention lots of basic spiritual growth stuff -- prayer, Bible memorization, etc. You also mention lacking the "warm fuzzies." Let me tell you, I've been there, done that. The only thing I might mention on that point is that if a warm fuzzy got you to walk the aisle, say the prayer, and sign the dotted line, you actually lasted longer at the faith thing than most. But in the end, faith is not feelings, and in fact faith proves itself most true when it carries through the times we don't have the fuzzies.

You also confuse me a bit by saying you are saved because you trusted Jesus but then saying you don't believe in Him anymore. I wonder which you think is really true. I'm in no position to judge your eternal state -- only God can do that -- but I do believe that the proof of salvation is not in a starter prayer or even a long commitment to religious stuff, however sincere, but in perseverance. In other words, how you end up is proves the authenticity of how you started. You say you can't have a relationship with Jesus now and are quite comfortable with that. You say you've lost your faith. My prayer for you is that that is temporary. But if it is not, if you finish your journey with the same convictions you have now about faith and the existence of Jesus, then however hard you tried for however long you tried before, your faith even then was not as strong as you thought it was.
Because faith perseveres.

Why are we supposed to have a relationship with someone we can't see or audibly hear? I don't know. I don't know why it works that way, but I know that faith, which is the vehicle of salvation throughout the life of discipleship, would not be faith if the object of belief were easy to believe in. I know it is harder to have a relationship with someone I can't see or hear than it is someone I live with, but then that is why a harder and more persistent trust is in order.
Again, I won't presume to know why God does the things he does.

We are talking experience here, aren't we? You say you tried and tried and just couldn't get through. That God left you or you gave up for going so long without hearing from Him. I can't speak to your experience on those matters, but I'll take your word for them.
Will you take my word on my experience? I have despaired of God's silence before, too. I've gone months of feeling lost and confused, wondering if God even heard me, much less intended to keep the promises I thought He had made to me. Through some of the toughest junk I've ever gone through, I had no idea what God was doing and was tempted to think He didn't care about me.

The difference, I am guessing, is that I just couldn't stop believing. I don't know why, and it's certainly not because I'm a better person than anybody else. I am honest enough to admit I'm a terrible sinner. Someone once told me he wished he was just half the Christian I was, and I wanted to tell him that if he took half my faith, he had to take twice my sin. So it's not for anything good or better about me, but I just could not give up believing. I wish I could tell you what I have gone through, but even now it is too personal, and the wounds too fresh. But when I had no reason to trust, I just did. And at the very last second, when all hope seemed lost, He came through for me in a HUGE way.

So my experience, such as it is, is that despite going through the worst time in my life for a very long time, I kept the faith in the one I couldn't see or hear, and he saved the day for me. I do not know your experience, and I'm glad. I wish you could know mine. But it would require believing at the time it is easiest not to.

Notice I didn't mention memorizing Scripture or having a quiet time or church attendance. I'm a big fan of all those things, but if I ever put the faith for my salvation in the effects of doing them, I might've lost my faith a long time ago too. Forget the warm fuzzies and the religious duties; cling to Jesus again, and you can do all that stuff because you choose to trust him, not because you think doing them will get him to love you.

Anyways . . . my two cents. If you're still reading, I hope it answered your question, even if just on a theoretical level.
Thanks for asking. And thanks for reading! I hope you'll stick around.

Seems to me the "Number 1 Non-Forgivable Sin" in today's churches is homosexuality, not divorce.

Ah, but what if the person is a "Former Homosexual"? Then the guy (most likely a guy) will be paraded around as proof that it is possible to come out of the homosexual lifestyle.

Thanks, Jared, for your response. And thank you to the others who also gave words of encouragement. I will chew on what you said Jared.

But for now, I find it interesting that comments #29 and 30 came up right when they did. No, I won't go so far as to say it's providential. But obviously, coincidences do happen.

I was never unfaithful to my wife of 25 years, but my prayers to God frequently involved asking him to purify my heart of the same-sex attraction that I hid from everyone (including her) all those years. This contributed to our divorce.

I kind of made Psalm 86:11 my "life verse," quoted here from memory: "Teach me your way, O Lord, and I will walk in your truth. Give me an UNDIVIDED HEART that I may fear your name." What I wanted was to fear God with my WHOLE heart, not constantly returning to the vomit of homosexual desire, and then purging myself of those thoughts as I confessed, repented and committed my way to the Lord once again. This cycle was lived out countless times throughout my life.

Toward the end, I was even content to accept that this unwanted attraction might never leave (my "thorn" in the flesh?), but would God please somehow make his presence enough?

No. There came a point when I realized that God's "presence" was just an illusive, subjective feeling. Yes, faith is not a feeling (a phrase I memorized many years ago after listening to a tape by Nay Baily). But a RELATIONSHIP with someone definitely involves INTERACTION that produces feelings.

You said "faith perseveres." Yes, it does. And mine did for some 45 years. If I had "gone home to be with the Lord" when I was 35 years old, would it not have been said that my faith persevered long enough to matter? Have I simply outlived God's salvation? Actually, I'm not interested in debating Eternal Security here. I'm just trying to make a point about perseverance.

You said, "You mention going to church, but a part from it being something you 'did,' I wonder how committed to community growth you were. Was your church involvement more about you developing your personal faith or was it about growing together with other believers in corporate discipleship efforts?" I would admit that my commitment to corpoate discipleship efforts was tainted by my "secret."

You said, "You also confuse me a bit by saying you are saved because you trusted Jesus but then saying you don’t believe in Him anymore. I wonder which you think is really true." I think both are true, if you believe in Eternal Security. If you don't, then, to twist John Newton's words, I once was found, but now am lost.

You said, "Why are we supposed to have a relationship with someone we can’t see or audibly hear? I don’t know. I don’t know why it works that way, but I know that faith, which is the vehicle of salvation throughout the life of discipleship, would not be faith if the object of belief were easy to believe in. I know it is harder to have a relationship with someone I can’t see or hear than it is someone I live with, but then that is why a harder and more persistent trust is in order." I would agree with you except for the last sentence. I would change it to read: "I know it is IMPOSSIBLE to have a relationship with someone I can't see or hear..." I contend that it is not possible to have a relationship with someone with whom we cannot interact. Relationship means "to relate." I have to be able to communicate-- definitely-- in order to relate. It may indeed be FAITH to believe in Jesus, but it is NOT a relationship.

Which brings me to another objection. Why faith? Why is faith so important to God? Or, more succinctly, why is faith so important to God NOW; why not in Heaven (eternity)? He bases our entire salvation and "relationship" (Evangelical Christianity's word, not mine) to him on faith, but when we "see him face to face," will not faith be fulfilled and thus no longer necessary? So I have to ask, why is it so important now, but won't be later? Why the smoke and mirrors now?

You said that in your darkest times, for some reason you just could not stop believing. I held on like that too. Why I did, I do not know either, just as you said you did not know.

It seems to me, that the only difference between one who believes and one who doesn't is the fact that one person believes and the other person doesn't. Pardon my sarcasm here, but doesn't that imply that it's a person's believing that gains his salvation? (I don't mean to be sarcastic, and I am tempted now to delete my expression of it, but I will leave it in here, if only for you to see some of my frustration. As you said, please don't take it personally. I really mean that.)

In closing, many people have said that God is with us, even when we are not aware of his precence. You know, it's that old poem "Footsteps," where, at the end, Jesus says that during those times when there were only one set of footprints, it was then that he carried us... Well, that may make for a great poster or coffee mug, but in everyday, practical living, I submit that that is hogwash. Sure, fine. Maybe that's true. Then I guess I'll see Jesus in Heaven. But the Bible promises many things for NOW too! (Peace that passes understanding, for one.) I find no reason to continue in the faith if the only true promises are for Eternity and the false ones are for here and now. And if my EXPERIENCE doesn't verify God's promises, just how long am I supposed to hold on to those promises? Regardless, the time has passed.

Anyway, thank you again for reading my rant, and for your response. I appreciate your sensitivity and your ability to communicate your position without "preaching" at me.

Hi Matthew,

I appreciate your honesty with us here.

I will leave fuller responses to others, but one question I have for you: are you angry with God? I have sometimes wondered if those who discard the faith are doing so not so much because they really don't believe, but rather because they feel like God has left them and it is their way of getting back at God.

Are you mad at God for not taking away your desires? I'd be interested in your response.

I hope I'm not offending you. I feel for you - I know you've been through a very difficult time and sometimes throwing in the towel seems the best course of action. The hardest part of this discussion is that it is so much based on experience. For instance, I could never call God's promises for now "false" - simply because they aren't false. At least not in my experience. But I know in your experience God has seemed distant, the heavens have been brass, and I can imagine the sand-pounding frustration you are feeling.

Thanks for talking with us. Stick around!

Also - to Calvinator. I'm picking up a whole lot of cynicism on your part. Why? For instance, this line:

"Ah, but what if the person is a “Former Homosexual”? Then the guy (most likely a guy) will be paraded around as proof that it is possible to come out of the homosexual lifestyle."

I've only seen that once, frankly. And it wasn't the church parading the guy around. It was Dennis Jernigan (the worship leader) telling of being delivered from the homosexual lifestyle.

I will admit to you that as a Baptist (and as someone who has chosen to be a Baptist and wasn't born into it) I sometimes get thin-skinned toward criticism of my denom by people who have left it. Baptist churches come in all stripes, but the stereotypes I read of it often don't match up to my experience, at all.

And when is it "parading" and when is it "praising"? We're supposed to tell how we were delivered.

Again, just wondering, why the cynicism.

Matthew, thanks for your reply. I'll admit that without knowing that quite significant piece to your personal puzzle, my previous answer might have talked all around your more specific concerns and experiences.

Briefly (becaust I just got up and my daughter's begging for cereal):

You ask about eternal security and whether you could still be saved because of the "once saved, always saved" thing. I will say that "eternal security" and "perseverance" are not really the same. Perseverance is not faith that continues for a time, but faith that carries us to the end of our days. That doesn't mean we don't go through dry spots, or even years of faithlessness and unbelief. That is why I hope your unbelief is temporary. Because if you continue as you are to the end of your days, it will not have been your faith that persevered, but your unbelief. The Bible does talk of those who have tasted of the heavenly gift and then "fallen away." I really hope that's not you.

I can't speak to your attraction, because I haven't experienced it. I believe without doubt that you and countless others, who really want(ed) to follow God but have had to live with this secret they felt ashamed about, have had to live some very, very difficult lives. I don't know what that's like. But I do know what hiding my inner self is like. I do know what it's like to have secret sins. (I'm not saying you think your attraction is a sin, I'm just using that as a word for my own thinking of my own "stuff.") No one is absent of compulsions or attractions. Surely some have lesser compulsions and more manageable attractions, but anyone who has struggled with faith has struggled with That One Sin.

That said, I want to echo a bit what De asked about anger. I don't sense so much you having given up and stopped believing, but more of an exasperation over why "it didn't work."

Maybe if you'd been able to share your secret with helpful brothers and sisters, it could have. Maybe if you'd done _____ or _____, it could have. I don't know what those things are, and speculating would be presumptious of me and probably irritating to you. And as far as the "helpful brothers and sisters" thing goes, I know that's mostly The Church's fault for not creating a safe, confessional community where believers struggling with all kinds of sins cannot share their struggles with others. For whatever it's worth, you should not have had to deal with alone. Discipleship isn't mean to be done alone.


Finally, you say: It seems to me, that the only difference between one who believes and one who doesn’t is the fact that one person believes and the other person doesn’t.

That doesn't bother me at all. In fact, I was gong to say something almost exactly like that in my previous comment, but was afraid it would have offended you. To that end, in my previous comment, I did not mean to imply that because I still believe I am somehow a stronger or better person than you. If anything, it may seem the opposite, since you are able to make a leap (Jesus cannot be believed) that I am not.
But about our belief gaining us salvation? I don't believe that. I believe the work of salvation is Jesus', and that faith is the way we receive/accept it. When people ask me how it is fair that I believe God elects some and doesn't elect others, I tell them I've never met someone who didn't believe they were elect and was yet upset about it. Anyone worried about not being elect has merely to trust Jesus and thus prove their election.

I may have to rethink my imagined retort. Because you seem to both believe you've been rejected by a God you don't even believe exists, yet you seem sort of angry about it. That is why it is my hope to share with your contention, that you are actually eternally secure. I know that God is in the "old to new" business, so I hope that you will seek out ways to put your real self on the line and get your faith back.

That probably sounds simplistic and maybe pathetic and a little funny to you, I will pray that God will give you the faith you can't muster or don't want.

Hope you have a good rest of the weekend.

I'm really not cynical. I still admire the Baptist church, and if I had never come to accept the paedobaptist view, I would still be one today. The points I make about baptists might apply to much of the Evangelical Church today, but I don't have the history with the other denominations, so I don't know first-hand.

Matthew, I've blogged a bit about faith...

Here are some thoughts on a sermon by Spurgeon.

De, my "feelings" are that there are many churches that have divorce and remarriage language in the "official rule" but don't hold to it. I did specify "some" - and there are some that are downright scary.

De and Jared,

Thanks again, for your responses. Yes, I would most definitely agree that I carry anger over unmet expectations in my former Christian life. I don’t know whether you guys are just really perceptive or if it’s because I don’t hide it very well. I suspect it’s a little bit of both.

Some of my anger is directed at the God I’m not sure really exists (I consider myself agnostic, not atheist) but much of my anger is directed at the Church, for selling me a bunch of goods that just don’t ring true. But along with that anger toward the Church, is truly a sense of understanding, because I was sincerely in that camp for all of my life, and I know the Church is sincere-- I’m just thinking they are sincerely misled.

I guess we could discuss Eternal Security, and whether or not I was “really” saved until the cows come home. I agree that God (wherever he is) is the only one who can decide that, and right now, that’s really not my concern. I will say that if I was NOT saved, then I would find it hard to believe that ANYONE can be saved as far as Evangelical Christian doctrine (notice that I didn’t say Biblical doctrine-- there are many, many interpretations of that, aren’t there) is concerned. I was sincere in my following of Jesus, and if he somehow didn’t accept my faith and my repentance, then I would have to ask “who’s faith WOULD he accept?”

Yeah, I understood that my attraction itself wasn’t a “sin,” but for all intents and purposes whether the attraction led to “sin” or not, it is surely not a pleasant thing to live with. Yes, I prayed that God would change my desires. As a Christian, I wanted to totally “delight myself in the law of the Lord” (Ps. 1:2), and indeed I did meditate on the Word day and night. I prayed that he would give me an “undivided heart” as I mentioned before. I memorized the first chapter of James, asking God for wisdom daily (vs. 5), sincerely believing that he would give it to me (vs. 6), understanding that I needed to persevere in my faith (vs. 12), and continually loathing the fact that no matter what I did, I continually was “dragged away” by my own desires (vss. 14, 15) into lust and self-gratification. I “prayed back to God” passages like Philippians 4:4-9 and applied them to my life. I told God repeatedly that even if he didn’t give me that promised peace, I would persevere anyway, even in the face of his seeming to abandon me. I would use Abraham, in his willingness to sacrifice Isaac, as my example of faith, realizing that somehow, some way, God would provide a way out, or at least a way to survive, at just the right time and in just the right manner of his choosing.

But one day, a few years ago, I woke up and realized that nothing was ever going to change. I don't know what prompted this realization. There wasn't any one event that did it. I think I was just tired of the struggle; tired of the fight; tired of deluding myself into believing that thigs would change.

I “came out” to my wife shortly after that. We were just months away from our 25th anniversary. We had two boys in college at the time. Again, I had never been unfaithful to her, but it devastated her that I had been living a lie as far as my sexual desires were concerned.

We both started to attend a Christian “ex-gay” ministry (associated with Exodus International) in a city near our home. I also joined a men’s support group at a nearby Church for pornography addiction (not our own-- ours was a small Church that didn’t offer this ministry). We continued to get Christian counseling (we had been going off and on for years, and I had been going by myself, off and on, since I was a teenager).

I was so tired. I came to realize that all of these ministries held many people who were just as tortured as I was. And the disconcerting thing was, that they really didn’t seem to offer any answers that I hadn’t already tried (pretty much the perseverance thing repackaged). And the REALLY disconcerting thing was that their definition of success was simply living a life where the individual had enough self-control to keep everything under check. Yeah, that sounds twisted, from a Christian perspective. We’re supposed to “Let go and let God,” and yeah, that’s how it was presented-- allow the Holy Spirit to control and transform you (did I mention Romans 12:1,2?). But heck, if THAT would have worked, I wouldn’t have been here in these support groups in first place!

I had developed a close friendship with a (very straight) man in the past year or so, and I had admitted to my wife that I had been attracted to him. He didn’t share my feelings; he just enjoyed my company. And in reality, the friendship with him was something I had never had before; it was a "real guy" thing. But my wife became jealous of our friendship and gave me an ultimatum: Him or her. Apparently her jealousy was well-founded, because I told her that I would not end my friendship with him. She filed for divorce, and I moved out. That was about a year and a half ago.

So, you can see the choices I have made. I realize that I was the one who ended our marriage. Yeah, there is a lot of anger here. Yeah, I have hurt my ex-wife irreparably. Yeah, the faith I used to have-- that I would be able to somehow glorify God with my life-- has long ago died. You are both right, that I have walked away from God because he didn’t answer my prayers; but those prayers were straight from the Bible! I prayed that HIS will would be done. Maybe it has. (I find it difficult to believe that it was his will that I leave my wife.)

Hence, my mounting disbelief in God’s interest in my life. If he is out there somewhere, he surely isn’t IN here anymore. I used to think he was. He sure has a weird way of showing his love. Isn't it possible that I just didn't have quite enough faith? How do you get it back once it's gone? Faith comes from hearing, and hearing from the Word of God. I've heard it. You're right, I don't really want it anyway. Faith is too hard. I just don't want to work at it anymore.

My family is praying that I would be miserable to the point of repenting and returning to God. They are praying that I would turn to him and find him to be faithful. My response to that is: Wouldn't it be ironic that he answers THEIR prayers about this, and not mine all these years?

Yeah, I know I am responsible for my own choices. I’m not blaming God for my divorce or for the unbelievable pain I have caused others. Those were because of MY choices. I just believe that my choices were based on misinformation.

Well, enough rambling. Thanks again for the opportunity to express myself. I don’t know how constructive the whole thing is, but it is good to vent.

" I don’t know how constructive the whole thing is, but it is good to vent."

Hey Matthew, you're always welcome here.

Your story is heartbreaking, and I'm not going to at the moment have too many words of wisdom. I will be praying for you though. And I pray for rest and release and just some goodness to come to you.

Hang in there. And please stick around if you want - you're very welcome here.

I read this exchange with fascination, and empathy for the emotions expressed. I've felt, and continue to feel the doubts about faith and God that Matthew feels. But unlike him, I still believe in God, redemption in Jesus, and eternal life. Perhaps my doubts are easier to live with b/c I've never had to deal with the wrenching effect of being Christian and gay. But I've wondered for yours where this "personal relaionship" with God was. We can easily manufacture feelings of a relationship where none actually exists. How do we know if one exists or not? Because sometimes things go well for us? That's true of eveybody, animals too I guess. Because God always comes though when we really need him? Seems to me I know some good Christians who disprove that theory.

And why is faith so important. In fact, Jared's post implies that the only faith that's important is what you're feeling the moment you die. "Faith that carries to the end of your days," is the only faith that matters. Pretty arbitrary yardstick from the Creator of the Universe. Kill me now, lest I fall away. Sorry, I know I get sarcastic, but I have heard so many things that *sound* good that make no sense if you really examine them.

"The elect." I don't know exactly what Jared means by this, but I gather there's a lot of predestination sentiment on this site. Maybe that's Matthew's problem, he wasn't elected. That would explain a lot, wouldn't it. He wants to love God, live His will, and be His child but God doesn't want Matthew. He's not among the elect. Tough luck. What could Matthew do different? Nothing. That's the way the cookie crumbles. Doctrines that logically lead to positions like this have driven me to the very edge of the church.

Yet I do still believe. In God, in Jesus--His message and His Person--and in the importance of faith. Take that out of the world and the world isn't worth living in. Christianity is the only way to explain the mess we're in, and to offer a way to live in peace within the mess. Faith--or better, faithfulness--is the ultimate virtue/value. Because all other virtues are meaningless without it.

That all sounds pretty certain but really I'm just trying to sort it out. Church, for reasons I can understand, isn't a very good place to do that. This seems like maybe it is. I apologize for being abrupt and sarcastic. I hope no one takes offense.

Frank,

Thank you for so eloquently rephrasing my position. I agree with you exactly, until the last two paragraphs. You said Take that (Jesus and his message) out of the world and the world isn't worth living in. I would posit that there are many, many people in this world who have found fulfilling and meaningful lives even without Jesus. I don't believe Christianity does explain the mess we're in. Instead, it just offers more questions: "How can a loving God allow 'this mess we're in'? What about those who are not part of the elect? Would a just God allow (cause) people to be born who will never have the opportunity to be saved?" No, I don't believe Christianity has adequate explanations for the mess we're in.

Part of my arriving at the point of agnosticism has been coming to terms with the fact that I don't have the answers. No one does. Many people claim to have the answers, but even Christians have to admit at some point that they don't-- it wouldn't be faith if they did. My peace has come when I have recognized my lack of answers, and have accepted it. It IS possible to live without having the answers. I happen to believe that it is a more honest position.

If faith, or faithfulness, is the ultimate virtue, then I'm sunk. I have no faith, and my faithfulness (rather, lack thereof) is clearly evident.

Frank wrote: Maybe that’s Matthew’s problem, he wasn’t elected. That would explain a lot, wouldn’t it. He wants to love God, live His will, and be His child but God doesn’t want Matthew. He’s not among the elect. Tough luck. What could Matthew do different? Nothing. That’s the way the cookie crumbles. Doctrines that logically lead to positions like this have driven me to the very edge of the church.

Just for the record, the Doctrine of Election would not be consistent with what Frank posits here. According to the Doctrines of Grace, one cannot even want to love God and be His child unless God has already planted faith within him.

Now, the Bible also states that not everyone who calls him "Lord" is saved, so we have to figure out how to balance those two positions that are not contradictory.

Frank

Regarding your post. I can feel your passion, but I would ask that we can keep this from spiraling out of control into another Calvinism debate :-) - that's a really big subject.

You wrote: "But I’ve wondered for yours where this “personal relaionship” with God was. We can easily manufacture feelings of a relationship where none actually exists. How do we know if one exists or not? Because sometimes things go well for us? That’s true of eveybody, animals too I guess. Because God always comes though when we really need him? Seems to me I know some good Christians who disprove that theory."

Well, I do believe that God always ultimately comes through (and Scripture supports this), but it's really a question of timing. We spent time yesterday with a young Christian woman suffering from lifelong, chronic sickness, stuck in the hospital again for another week. Yet she still clings to Christ. Life is hard. But the existence of suffering among Christians does not "disprove" any theory, unless it disproves one that was emphatically not posited in this post - trust me, there is no prosperity gospel, your-best-life-now sentiment in Jared's writings.

We can't see everything. I am amazed at Christians who do go through more than we can imagine and still remain faithful. Remaining faithful is not an arbitrary and capricious yardstick of a fickle God. It is a gift of a gracious God. The faith of some people amazes me.

Regarding Matthew - I have seen people who felt exactly as he does now restored to the faith. And, alternatively, I've seen people who have been wonderfully blessed by God and without any particular hardship in their lives give away their walk with God for a bowl of red beans (figuratively speaking) . . . That kills me and, frankly, robs me of a lot of joy.

Frank, I hope things get better for you. I hope the Church becomes the real body of Christ to you.

Everyone, thanks for being honest and respectful. This is a necesary conversation.

Great post! We are discussing "Mere Christianity" in our small group and I made the point that Lewis had the foresight while writing to point out that in relation to an "all good" God we are making enemies of him every day. We are awful people, not people with issues. As awful people we needed Jesus and nothing else. His grace and gift are all we need.

I don't want a discussion on Calvinism in this thread either, but I feel compelled to respond to a couple of things Frank said. If only because when I am misunderstood or misrepresented, I think it prudent to clarify.

In fact, Jared’s post implies that the only faith that’s important is what you’re feeling the moment you die. “Faith that carries to the end of your days,” is the only faith that matters. Pretty arbitrary yardstick from the Creator of the Universe.

That's a very uncharitable way of suggesting I believe in cheap grace, which I do not. I also distinctly said faith was not feelings.
I am not saying one can believe in Jesus and go on doing whatever the heck they'd like until the moment before death when they really decide to kick in with their faith. But I'm of the mind that someone who really believes in Jesus wouldn't act like that anyway.

Look, it's not up to me who's in and who's out. All I can do is see what the Bible says about it, and it suggests to me that saving faith perseveres. That doesn't mean it waits until the last minute. It just means it starts and continues until one's final breath. That doesn't mean there are no lapses or backslidings or periods of doubt or even unbelief. It just means people who are really saved will be survive faithless times with their faith intact. I don't know if that's Matthew or not -- I hope to God it is! -- but it's not for me to say this side of his experience.

The suggestion that my take on perseverance amounts to some sort of cheap-grace deathbed faith is incorrect.
But I don't discount deathbed conversions either. God is big and can do whatever He wants. And I believe grace is scandalous, so just beause something smacks of unfairness to me, doesn't mean it is wrong of God.

Maybe that’s Matthew’s problem, he wasn’t elected. That would explain a lot, wouldn’t it. He wants to love God, live His will, and be His child but God doesn’t want Matthew. He’s not among the elect. Tough luck

Frank, if "doctrines like this" are going to drive you to the edge of the church, you should at least try to understand what the doctrine teaches. And election does not mean someone may want God but can't get in because God won't let them. My view is that nobody wants God until God wants them. So if someone wants God, God wants them.
If Matthew really wants to love God and live His will, God won't stop him. If Matthew truly believes in Jesus and wants "in," he is elect. As I said before, I never met someone who was upset about being unelect.

Matthew's current position is that a relationship with Jesus is pointless or impossible and he is even unsure about the existence of God. That doesn't mean he's not elect. But characterizing his position as one that wants God and wants to live His will is not accurate. He can speak for himself, but my understanding of his comments is that he no longer wants those things because he no longer believes those things.

Frank, I appreciate the comment. I just think that having to defend myself from things I don't believe or didn't say can really sidetrack a discussion.

Jared. My issues are not with what you said, but with what your positions imply. Although I have no read on what "people who are really saved will be survive faithless times with their faith intact" might mean. A "faithless time" is, by any reasonable definition, a time without faith. You can, presumbably, get faith back, and I think that happens all the time with people. But it's not the same faith kept intact, but a different one, perhaps stronger, perhaps wiser. "Cheap grace" has implications that were not raised in my post. I'm simply challenging the idea that in a life that is filled with faithful and faithless times, the time that matters most is the time you die.

"Just for the record, the Doctrine of Election would not be consistent with what Frank posits here. According to the Doctrines of Grace, one cannot even want to love God and be His child unless God has already planted faith within him." I did not know that. C.S. Lewis talks about the longing each of us feels, the longing that has no other proper object but God. The "God-shaped hole" at the center of each of us, that makes us all at least *want* to love God. So the doctrine of election apparently denies this. Interesting. But forget about Lewis, the evidence of living is enough. Everybody I've ever met wants to love God, with very few exceptions. They conceive of God differently, sometimes truly twisted, but the desire for a connecttion to a greater being than oneself is just about universal. If we agree that God is beyond our understanding, then requiring people to have exactly the right conception of God before it "counts" won't fly. If we agree that we do, after all, understand *some* things about God, that we should be loving the God revealed by Scripture as best we understand Him, then we've introduced an element of relativity into the equation that seems to go against the entire election doctrine. I'm sure the Doctrine of Election can explain all this away, but the fact that it would even *want* to explain away the what is--for me--the fundamental ground of Christian belief (the God-shaped hole) is of course the whole problem.

Sorry De.

"Everybody I’ve ever met wants to love God, with very few exceptions."

Frank, what does this mean? I don't think people truly know what it means to love God until they are overcome by His love.

Yes we have a God-shaped vacuum/longing that only He can fill, but Romans 1 is very clear that each of us succeeds to some degree in supressing that longing by attempting to fill the vacuum with other things. The other things may even be a "twisted" attempt to love God (as you put it) but that's far from actually loving God as Christians do - responding directly to His grace in our lives.

In reality, I wish that half of the professing Christians I know truly wanted to love God (what a wonderful world it would be) - but I don't see it.......I'm missing your point.

nhe: Yeah, my statement about everybody wants to love God doesn't make much sense by itself; but I was responding to something in the previous post. The emphasis is on the word 'wants.' Yes, we surely try to satisfy that want with other things besides God, like you say, suppressing it. But the desire is still there, no matter how masked. At least so I believe. My point was to question (okay, challenge) the position that Jared laid out, which was that people who aren't elected do not, and in fact cannot *want* to love God. I know a lot of non-Christians; the overwhelming majority of them have that longing (which they might or might not identify as a longing for God, but that's what it is nevertheless).

I just can't resist this, but I feel a little like Job right now-- being offered all kinds of advice by his three friends. I know this isn't my conversation, but it seems to have gotten a little sidetracked. I'm not really that interested in figuring out the Election/Eternal Security question. If I was, I'd probably still be in the Church.

Thanks, you guys, for the input. I appreciate your perspective(s). I'll stick around and keep on reading. It's good to hear what others think, even if I don't agree.

"I’m not really that interested in figuring out the Election/Eternal Security question."

Well said.

While I think that's a worthy discussion to have, in its place, I feel like it distracted from the conversation we were trying to have.

About the Job comparison - um, thanks? :-)

Reading through this thread, it's hard for me to tell whether people think Matthew was right to expect his faith to bring him the reward of a peaceful and happy psychological state - the "warm fuzzies" as he called them.

So...do you? I was looking through the archives for that post of Jared's on continuing to struggle with clarity and hope on a psychological level despite abiding commitment to his faith. I really liked that post at the time and think it's relevant now, but I couldn't find it. Somebody link back?

"So…do you? "

A reading of the New Testament shows that many of the faithful believers in Christ suffered horribly.

I think there is a distinction between "happiness", which is dependent on circumstances (or what "happens" to you) and joy. And there's a distinction between lack of trouble versus peace amidst trouble.

It's a hard question to answer, because I would never tell a Christian "don't expect peace". Because peace is promised to us. But it's not promised at all times - it's not necessarily a constant of the Christian life.

This is a difficult topic because I can't step into Matthew's troubles.

A reading of Philippians 4 suggests that peace is promised to anyone who: is not anxious, who- by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving- presents his/her requests to God. It doesn't mention that this promise is only true some of the time, or that the peace promised is intermittent. The only conditions to the peace that transcends all understanding are those I just mentioned.

So, as long as I meet those conditions (which I sincerely did), why would I not expect the peace to be constant? Where do you get the idea that peace is "not promised at all times?" The verses don't say "And the peace of God... will usually guard your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus."

What does "guard your hearts" mean? It looks like it's "guard" in almost all translations except the KJV, which has "keep."

Matthew - great question. As I was writing my comment I was a bit concerned that I might either a) have this wrong or b) not state it correctly.

Others can probably explain it better than I - but what I meant when I said "peace is not a constant" is that it is dependent on other things. Paul would not urge Christians to "be anxious for nothing" if peace was just a default state. It's an if-then - do this and the peace of God will guard your hearts and minds. There were plenty of times in Scripture where Paul himself was troubled.

This is difficult to discuss because I tend to feel peace most of the time. I can't relate completely to your position at this time although I have certainly had times of deep struggle in my Christian life.

In summary - yes, I believe in the promise of peace, understanding that there are conditions upon it. No, I don't understand why you didn't have peace if you sincerely sought after God and presented your requests to him. But there are others who have gone through even worse situations than you have who have retained their faith. I don't mean that as a condemnation of you. I don't know why this is. And - like Jared - I hope your time of unbelief is just temporary.

And, to reiterate an earlier point (hoping like crazy I'm not just being a Job's friend here), I think the anger needs to be dealt with. I hope you can find a way to deal with that.

Frank, I'd disagree on "wants". If I take something to suppress my appetite its because I DON'T want to eat.

If I suppress truth, its because I don't want to love God, or even have to deal with Him at all.

Yes, there's a longing in every human heart for something eternal - maybe that's what you mean.

However, left to our enslavement to sin, we don't WANT to seek the source of that longing. We want to feed the longing often with something temporary to satisfy our flesh, and that's far from the same as "wanting" to love God.

Guess I'm sounding pretty reformed there......sorry, it just makes sense to me.

"Where do you get the idea that peace is 'not promised at all times?' The verses don’t say 'And the peace of God… will usually guard your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus.'"

Where did you get the idea that it is? I cannot think of a single biblical figure that experienced this, in both the Old and New Testaments. Look at David. He felt abandoned for long stretches many times in his life, he gave in to temptation, even deliberately making other's lives a living hell because of his selfish choices (i.e. Bathsheba's hubby), and yet he was forgiven and restored because of his repentance and sincere outcry to God. But he didn't get to keep his son. There was a price.

From what you have said throughout this thread, Matthew, I wonder if the difference is the secret. You said that you suffered alone with this for all those painful years. Is it possible that this is the differential here between you? When David's sin was exposed, he didn't feel angry at God for not taking his desire for Bathsheba away or resentful that God took his son despite his sincere repentence. He desired restoration to his Father above these things, because his love for God was so intense.

Please take my suggestion in stride, as with others. I mean to be respectful. My soul aches with you. I just see so many times that it is the secret that destroys. I know that you may be thinking, "No, actually, it was revealing it that destroyed," but I don't think you are on the back side of this journey yet. I think the revelation was the beginning of truth.

In Psalms David talks about how when he cherished sin in his heart God wouldn't hear his prayers. While I know clearly that you didn't cherish these desires but hated them, I wonder if keeping it so soundly buried out of fear hampered the whole "take these desires away" prayer.

"Perfect love casts out fear." Only God has perfect love. Maybe your need to let the hidden things be revealed was more of the Holy Spirit's prompting than you realize, because the truth will set you free. Not free from desire, or free to sin, or free to live a peaceful, pain free life, but free to be living unabashedly in grace, enveloped by God's capacity to love even hideously ugly you.

You talked about James 1. So did I, but we focused on different parts. You the beginning and I the end.

Looking into the mirror of yourself and hating what you see is not the point. It is looking past that to the way that God sees you clothed in Christ's complete covering and seeing the new creation is.

Now you will say, "But I sincerely did try to do what it says. I tried with all my might." But you did it alone.

How can your brothers and sisters help bear your burden if you never revealed it during all those years?

Now, I cannot begin to speak about your experience with the ex-gay counseling thing, except to say that when you see "their definition of success was simply living a life where the individual had enough self-control to keep everything under check," I say, "YES! EXACTLY!"
Isn't that all any of us are doing?

Could it be that maybe, just maybe, God loves you anyway and just wants you to accept the fact that you fail at things sometimes without hating yourself so much over it?

Now, before everyone jumps on my back over the "putting self before God" bandwagon, that's not what I mean. I don't mean the kind of freeing yourself to be who you are so you can indulge in sin guilt-free. (Because that would be the whole point of rejecting God for many--not necessarily you, Matthew) I mean freeing yourself to accept the grace that is there for you guilt-free. To release the pain of hating that you struggle at all. The feeling of being so utterly unworthy of God's love and grace that it eats you alive.

I think that all of us have something that we continually struggle with, fail time and time again, feel worthless and unworthy to be used of God for anything good, and hate ourselves for having to learn the lesson over and over. . .and over. . .and over.

For me it is anger and negativity. My temper flares without warning at times. It has been a hard fought battle with many scars to even realize how bad it was, then a long period of grieving over the knowledge, then horrible pain in realizing that I am capable of doling out that kind of pain when the deepest desire of my heart is to never let anything steal my joy, but to let God's love pour unabashedly from my heart and heal everyone it touches. It is more than I could bear, and I would cry out to God, "how can I be this way? Why am I this way? How can you love me this way?"

I don't have it all together. I never will. But I get to start each day fresh. I get to bask in His love "even though." I may not be able to undo the damage I do to my children when I scream like a banshee in their face and have to separate myself from them to keep myself from hurting them in a way I know only from the inside of me that I could be capable of. But I know that as surely God is slowly healing me of my own parents "mistakes", so he will love and heal them.

And the only way I can find hope that someday might be different is to be honest not only with myself about what I fear I am capable of, indeed, what I have been guilty of at times, but to allow daily accountability with brothers and sisters I trust to love me anyway.

To know that without God in my life keeping my temper in check, slowly transforming my life to reflect more of Christ's patience and compassion, that I could be capable of doing things that might someday get my children taken away from me if I were to give full vent to my rage is so incredibly painful.

But I do have God in my life, and it is only because of Him that I can KNOW that it is only a part of me, not "who I am." Homosexual desires are a part of you. They may plague you and seek to destroy your life, but that doesn't mean that you never loved your wife. That doesn't mean that it encompasses all of your being. That doesn't mean that God made you wrong or rejects you from the elect. Maybe, just maybe, it is nothing more than your Jezebel. And maybe it will never go away.

But maybe your wearyness came in fighting alone. Maybe by the time you let it all hang out some things couln't be saved. Your wife has surely had much to work through, and her rejection is because of her not having enough strength to keep at it, not because God gave up on you.

And perhaps your friend who means so much to you was sent to bless you with knowledge of what life can be like with a true brother in Christ at your side. Maybe he is strong enough to weather the storm without succumbing to it. Maybe he is there to help you sort out the difference between sexual desire and the love that comes from God.

Please know that I am not saying that any of these words are "the answer." I just have seen an absence of words reflecting your acceptance of his grace through all those years and an abundance of self-hatred, a thing I know well. I can only speak from my own heart about how God has begun to transform me since I gave voice to my sin.

My sincere hope for you is that giving voice to all of this was the beginning of a new deeper faith five years from now, not the end of your faith for good. I believe that God loves you just as much as He loves me, and that is a hard thing for anyone to grasp, because it overwhelms my guilt every day.

Your sister, whether you like it or not,
Leslie

Jared,

sorry if I just rang up the longest, most meandering post ever, but I just couldn't hold it in. My heart was too full.

Leslie, no apology necessary. Meander away! ;-)

It has occurred to me that perhaps that is why people have blogs of their own, and that perhaps it is time to overcome the fear of taking mine out from under wraps. I signed up in February, have posted a couple of things, deleted them, posted something different, and never gave the address to anyone.

So here goes. There's not much there yet, but be patient with me. I'm not yet comfortable with the notion of trusting God with my mouth outside of a couch and a cup of jo and one on one conversation. But then I post here, so. . .maybe I should just get over myself and (gulp) let it hang out where people can choose to ignore me! :)

Leslie,

Your words hit a nerve with me. I have had a pretty strong internal reaction to them. I appreciate how much thought you put into what you have said. I want to respond openly and honestly, and I hope I can do so without being so forthright that my emotions and frustration become the issue, instead of what I really want to say.

I can see much truth in what you said. You are right that David felt abandoned for long stretches in his life. I remember, years ago, listening to an audio tape by Nay Bailey (sp). She talked about how David would tell God things like, “I feel like you don’t love me.” But after telling God how he felt and what he experienced-- sometimes at length, then he would stop and say something like, “But your Word says...” and then he would recite what God had promised and that God was with him even when he didn’t feel it. And then he would say “And Your Word is more true than my feelings.” (Not exact quotes, of course, but you get the idea.)

I used to do that a lot. I’d continually go to the Psalms and read what David wrote. I’d agree with the Psalms. And then I’d say to God, “But Your Word is more true than my feelings, and so I will just wait upon you, and I will count on you and I will trust that you DO love me, even when I feel abandoned.”

I did that a lot. I did that a LOT. I can’t tell you how many times I cried myself to sleep thinking those thoughts (when my wife was already asleep next to me).

Yes, the secret. The secret was so hard. It was so alienating. It was awful. It did keep me separate from others.

Throughout adolescence and my adult life, I pleaded with God to heal me from this. And I told him that I would do anythingif he would just change my desires. Anything, that is, except tell my wife. I knew her well enough to know that if she ever found out, she would be devastated. She never deserved to marry a man who liked men. I told God he could do anything he wanted, just as long as my wife didn’t have to know. Of course, that’s the way God works, isn’t it. The one thing we hold from him, that’s the one thing he wants.

But, in the end, I was right. Our marriage didn’t survive the revelation, and I know that I have hurt her in a way that she will never recover from. I just see so many times that it is the secret that destroys. I know that you may be thinking, “No, actually, it was revealing it that destroyed,” but I don’t think you are on the back side of this journey yet. I think the revelation was the beginning of truth. Oh, sure, it wasn’t the revelation that ended our marriage; I realize that. It was my refusal to work anymore. Once I realized that God really doesn’t plan on healing me, I decided that I was done playing his game. I tried for 45 years to do the “ask, seek, knock” thing, and from what I saw in the ex-gay ministries and in private counseling, asking, seeking and knocking really didn’t bring about anything. My position now is: God knows my address. If he wants to talk, he knows where to find me. I’ve tried and tried to get him to talk, and I’m tired of playing that game.

Yeah, my emotions are starting to come out now.

I DID tell some people. I went to a counselor when I was a teenager. Worthless. And then later, I went to a Christian counselor all of my adult life. He didn’t seem to have anything valuable to say. All we did was try to uncover WHY. Never quite got to HOW to fix it. And toward the end, when I realized that the only thing I HADN’T tried was telling more and more people about it, I DID go to some pastors and elders and told them.

Yeah, to be honest, what I wanted from them was one of the things I wanted from God: to be healed and free from the desires. How can I be of any value to God if all I do is wile away the time looking at pictures of men and self-gratifying? My whole life has been squandered, at least up until this point. But for some reason, God seems to think a gay porn addicted man is just what he wants?

No thanks. I have no desire to live in the mud hole any longer. “There is therefore now no condemnation...” Oh really? Oh, that’s right, God’s word is MORE TRUE than my feelings. Well, all I know is what I experience. If God’s word is so true, then why doesn’t he make good on his promise to at least give me some kind of peace-- maybe just once in a while? Something that I can KNOW is HIS peace and not indigestion?

I can’t live in the ethereal any longer. God is just a feeling-- a vague, subjective emotional state. I’m tired of hearing about a “relationship” with someone whom you can’t even carry on a conversation with.

Now you will say, “But I sincerely did try to do what it says. I tried with all my might.” But you did it alone. Well, I’ve never found anyone in the Church who I would want to walk this path with. That concept of “accountability” that Christians so love to espouse... it’s just a bunch of self-righteous people wanting to judge each other. I know of no one in the Church I would want to have calling me every day asking me if I had “been good today.” In fact, it was my self-righteous brother-in-law who discovered my condition (some sordid details belong here, but I won’t digress), and then promptly betrayed me to the elders of the church we both attended. And like I said earlier, I wasn’t involved in anything even closely resembling being unfaithful to my wife. So, yeah, I have a bad taste in my mouth for “accountability.”

Looking into the mirror of yourself and hating what you see is not the point. It is looking past that to the way that God sees you clothed in Christ’s complete covering and seeing the new creation is. Again, this seems like so much “spiritual” talk. How is it that I’m supposed to “see” how God sees me when I cannot even see God? All I know is what *I* see. (Yeah, I hear you now, “And the righteous will live by faith.”) What I see when I imagine what God sees is a man who continually sins. When I stop trying to imagine God, then I can see myself without the “sin.” Trying to imagine, or communicate with God is just too painful-- or too lonely. I have much more contentment and “peace” if you will, now that I have stopped groveling before God, begging him to make me “anew.”

All things are supposed to be made new in Christ. Somehow it just didn’t take with me. I don’t know why. I hated my life in Christ. I get a pang in my stomach just thinking about it again.

I remember constantly crying out to God, “Father, PLEASE show me what it is that I’m doing wrong.” I always thought that maybe I just hadn’t found the right set of words to get his attention. Maybe I needed to memorize more. Meditate more. Pray the Bible back to God. But you know, I don’t ever remember getting the feeling that what I needed to do was to tell people about my problem. I honestly don’t think I ever got that vibe from the Holy Spirit.

“...when you see ‘their definition of success was simply living a life where the individual had enough self-control to keep everything under check,’ I say, ‘YES! EXACTLY! Isn’t that all any of us are doing?’” Well, that may be what we’re all doing, but it seems quite a contrast to the “abundant life” I’ve been told about. Am I wrong in expecting something more than what a 12-step plan can offer?

I believe that God loves you just as much as He loves me, and that is a hard thing for anyone to grasp, because it overwhelms my guilt every day. I can’t live with guilt anymore. If God forgives me, then that’s fine. I’ll see him in heaven. (It’d be nice if he let me experience that forgiveness firsthand somehow-- tangibly.) I just haven’t found anything that matters in the here and now. If all the promises for heaven are true-- great.

Leslie, I know that I am rambling here now. And I know that you have already stated some answers to my questions-- answers that actually seem pretty good and logical. But right now, I have a hard time accepting that this is the way God works.

I envision someday standing in a room, being united with all my family members (and perhaps, God?)-- those whom I have hurt so badly, and embracing everyone, everyone embracing me-- all of us crying for joy-- you know, much like an episode of “Little House on the Prairie,” where Michael Landon’s lower lip quivers and everyone cries at the end... or maybe like the climax in a Hallmark Hall of Fame movie, where the main character finally sees the light. Well, I don’t want to sound too cynical here, but I have NO desire to be a Hallmark Hall of Fame subject. I cannot imagine anything that will make up for the pain and loneliness I have experienced. And I know there are millions who have gone through much worse things than I have. I can’t speak for them, but I can speak for Matthew. Like I said before, I’m tired of trying it God’s way. If he wants to talk, he knows how to reach me.

Thanks, Leslie for your words. As you can see by my reaction, you really DID hit a nerve. The anger you stirred up (it’s NOT directed at YOU!) is probably indicative of your ability to hit a bulls eye. I’ll keep what you said and return to it.

I'd like to continue our conversation if you are willing, but probably on my site. My site. Weird to hear it out loud like that. Anyhoo...baby's crying--gotta go.

hey Matthew, ok so, God doesn't "speak" to me or anything, but today at school I was reading James and you kept popping into my head. so, I don't know if you've read it recently, but maybe there's something there for you? I'm not like Leslie, De or Jared; they seem to know what they're talking about. I'm young and inexperienced. but my heart breaks for you. I hope you'll read it with a self-examining eye. every time I honestly do that in James I'm convicted of something.