Two things I want to note:

1. I don't mean to say that women should stop all this studying and learning and getting close to Jesus and let us men do it by ourselves. I don't mean to say that at all. I just want more men to do it too.

2. I recall my experience as a youth and as a minister in youth ministry. The girls, on average, were more spiritually mature than the guys. Don't know why this is, but it seems to me that maybe we are somehow growing female disciples young.

Kay Arthur of Precept Ministries gets this kind of response too. In a secular or petty sense, Moore and Arthur compete head to head. In reality, they don't, because I pray the Spirit is using both of them to preserve the world and save His own.

Are evangelical men Deadbeat Disciples?

Yes. Why? I don't know. What you're talking about here, I've noticed for quite a while. In general, the ladies kick our green Gatorade booties. I can't figure it out. Is it cultural? I wonder if it's the laziness of the American male who's used to a steady diet of sports, food, lust and greed. I don't know. I wonder if other cultures have this problem.

I been thinking about this is correlation to why there are so many more single Christian women in the church than there are single Christian men. It may seem like a stretch and it's a tangent, but work with me here. I agree that it seems that Christian women are more mature disciples (generally speaking). Speaking as a single Christian gal, it's hard to find a single Christian man who is on an equal or better spiritual level than I am. I think that's one reason why I'm still single. Mature (on all levels :wink:), single Christian men are hard to find.

As for the main subject - my church is a prime example of what you're saying, Jared. Our women's ministry in general is flourishing. The men's ministry is dead and it's a serious problem that has yet to be addressed by our new pastor (although he's only been around for about 6 months so far). And by dead, I mean dead. There hasn't been anything for the men in our church of any substance for probably 2 years.

Another thought...and I witnessed this in my time with the International Division of Young Life - there are far more single women in overseas missions than men. Sure there are a lot of couples/families, but when you look at the statistics, there are usually more single women serving in ministry overseas than any other demographic. For Young Life, I'd say that easily half of the folks in overseas ministries are single women. The other half is composed of married couples and single men.

One more thought. I thought I was done, almost closed the window and another one popped in my head.

Women are more nurturing by nature. I think that a huge part of discipleship is the care and nurture of each other. Men tend not to be that way with each other, right?

Jen just said:
"Women are more nurturing by nature. I think that a huge part of discipleship is the care and nurture of each other. Men tend not to be that way with each other, right?"


Jen, I think you hit the nail on the head here. Men and women are wired differently. I'm not excusing men for not being more dedicated though.

It seems like the men in the book of Acts didn't have a problem, despite being wired differently than women. I just think, in general, American Christian men are gutless when it comes to discipleship.

Like Bird, I'm not sure the gender-specific traits have much to do with it.
I think it has a lot to do with the shift in American culture about, oh, thirty years ago. Men became more and more passive for whatever reason. Blame feminism, blame the ERA, blame Gloria Steinem, blame whatever you want. At some point in recent American history, while women were becoming more assertive and powerful and independent and what-not, men became less engaged.
It may actually be connected to the scenario of the wife taking her kids to church while hubby sleeps in. Somewhere, for some reason, men stopped leading.

Someone with a better mind for cultural history and sociology might be able to pinpoint better than I (and explain it, too). I just think it has to do with masculine culture in general, not necessarily something that is church-specific or even gender-trait specific. Men seem to have no problem making time for golf or raquetball or barhopping or whatever else with the guys.
It's a problem of priorities and interest, and the connected spiritual deficiency has some cultural genesis, I think.

Anyone else?

A la Jen, I have another thought:
My wife reports that women buy about 70% of the books in Christian bookstores (I think this stat holds true for "secular" bookstores too). Is this because women do the shopping? Or is this because women are the ones today interested in self-education or exercising their mind? I think it's no secret that, generally speaking, men don't really read.*


* Again, I'm speaking generally here. I'm obviously aware that the Thinklings and all of our male visitors are very well-read. I think we need to look beyond the blogospheric culture, however, as we are probably a minority within broader evangelicalism.

Another "a la Jen" note:

Jen herself wrote: "there are far more single women in overseas missions than men"

I have noticed this too. And more young women aspiring to go into mission work than young men.

I've been doing intensive research on this subject for years, and I've come to the following conclusion...

Guys are jerks.

Seriously - I don't know why. I think that (despite all my WAH-bashing) there is a point to be made that we men have lost our hearts. We're passive. We're hedonistic. Our priorities are out of whack.

I'm too tired to expound more, but this is a huge problem today and I hope we live to see it get fixed - and perhaps even be part of the solution.

culture shifts aside, men have for large parts of human history been lagging women in church attendance and church activities.. men's "movements" have been comparatively short lived, be it Promise Keepers or Wild At Heart.. it takes more to tap into the male psyche, and it's apparently elusive.. men might have all the patriarchial tradition behind it to dominate positions of church leadership, but that has done little to motivate men in the masses..

men's "movements" have been comparatively short lived, be it Promise Keepers or Wild At Heart.

Two examples of American men's movements. Again, I wonder about men in other cultures.

I do agree that feminism in America is a large contributor to the problem. I wonder if while women were beginning to feel more empowered the men were looking at having a spiritual life as a weakness? And so they unconsciously or not stopped engaging in what many might have considered a crutch.

The girls, on average, were more spiritually mature than the guys

Well, yeah. I think that, on average, women are typically more mature than men. At least, they act more mature, any-whoo. :-)

Seriously, though, I think that Jared absolutely nailed it when he wrote this in the original post:

Are we too proud to admit we need a Bible study class? Too lazy to read our Bibles every day? Too uninterested to use Bible study guides or workbooks like we're studying for graduation?

I once heard someone say that maybe it's easier for women, than men, to be in love with Jesus because Jesus is a man.

Now don't turn this thought off too quickly guys. Remember, you all are talking about generalities, and about general differences between men and women and about evangelical culture as a whole, not just visitors to this blog.

What made me remember this, was this quote from Jared:
"Again, I'm speaking generally here. I'm obviously aware that the Thinklings and all of our male visitors are very well-read. I think we need to look beyond the blogospheric culture, however, as we are probably a minority within broader evangelicalism."

It seems that for most evangelical men, Jesus is just one dude among many. He is a hero, or a leader or an example. But Lord? The primary focus of our life, love, thoughts, attitudes, hearts and minds? That just seems to be a little too much.

Oh, and women have always "outfollowed" men. Even since the early church. Notice Peter doesn't address the husbands of unbelieving wives. That doesn't seem to have been a problem. Origen and other early church fathers' primary students were women.

God has used many men in leadership over the last 2,000 years, no question. But the meat and potatoes faithful, day in, day out followers have always been most strongly represented among the church's women.

On Shrode's comment #17: Not sure I agree with that assessment.
On Chris's comment #16 and Shrode's #18: I think these are as close as anyone as come to correct.

I want to point out, too, that I don't think evangelical men are deadbeats all around. By all indications, evangelical men today have recommitted themselves to family and to church in general, I think. I don't know that Promise Keepers (or WAH, for that matter) is a "failed movement." I think the PK mentality is still going strong in most churches.
But for some reason this has not really carried over into discipleship. I think husbands and fathers have done a great job of correcting the ills of their fathers or grandfathers (provided there were any). Men today are spending more time with their families, I think.
And I think they feel like they want to follow Jesus. They just aren't spending as much time with Him.

Maybe homework and such is not really a guy thing. Maybe I'm asking the wrong questions. Do guys need workbooks and study guides to follow Jesus? After all, if they are actually being more Christlike in their families and at work, maybe they don't need to attend Men's Fraternity.
Now, of course we need to spend time in the Word. But maybe the way women do it, which is more "obvious" and visible, is not the way men are wired up to do it.

Just saying. Not necessarily believing.

I am convinced that men must commit themselves to the Word and to leading their families by that example (ie. letting their family seeing them committed to Bible study and to living it out). I am convinced that men need brothers in the faith, maybe to be mentored or to mentor, maybe for accountability, maybe to just have encouragement. Christianity is not a lone ranger experience, and I think too many men try to do it that way.
But maybe the big group studies and homework workbooks and all that are not the way men are made to follow Jesus.

Is this whole post based on an unfair measure of maturity?

Jared,

You may be hitting on something. I believe that men need to "do more" to lead their families, but you've got me thinking: measuring men's involvement with Christ by checking out their involvement in group studies may be unfair. Women are naturally more gregarious than men. They are more verbal - they like to talk out their feelings and insights. Women need other women more than men need (or perhaps "want" would be a better word) other men.

I personally haven't been in a "men's bible study" in - well, in as far back as I can remember. So here I am criticising men, and - well, I'm one of the statistics!!!

Now, does that mean I'm not growing in my faith? No, I don't think so - but I study on my own more than anything. And I study for the ministry I'm involved in - teaching discipleship classes to teens, etc.

Perhaps a better measure (and one where men would probably still fall short) would be "how many men are actively involved in ministry?";"0

Right. I started off wondering why there was no male equivalent of Beth Moore. And even the big-name male teacher/preachers are studied more closely by females.

How many men are actively involved in ministry?
I like that measure, but I think it does leave out Bible study. I also think it might leave out a sense of community (depending on the ministry). (I know that in addition to all the ministry work you do, you also meet with an accountability partner (or at least used to).)

I think I'm agreeing that we shouldn't have the same specific measure for men that we do for women, but I think the general markers should be the same: ministry, study, community.
So the question is: Is the average evangelical man doing those?

The answer still may be no. And so my question(s) end up being the same thing:
"Are evangelical men Deadbeat Disciples?";"0

Perhaps if we approach this looking at secular leadership:

I am a manager at my job. I lead people. One of the things that makes me effective as a leader is my ability to utilize multiple resources to overcome an obstacle. For example, if I am required to see a project through with my team, I might ask someone else if that seems appropriate, or I might look at manuals, company processes, company guidelines, etc. If I spend all my time asking other people for help when I could be looking up the answer myself, I am not being a good leader. I am no different than the people I am leading.

Bottom line is this: As a leader, it is my responsibility to have and continue to seek as many different resources and aides that I can, so that when problems arise, I can be counted on to see those problems through. If I am successful, the people that work under me will know that all they have to do is follow me. It is exemplary (and easier on me) that they find things out for themselves so they can better themselves, but I am the one that will be ultimately be held accountable.

Applying this to spiritual maturity, the responsibility for men, as leaders, is to study and seek all available resources: the Bible (above all), prayer, sound instruction, teaching, books, etc. PK, WAH, and others may be valuable only to a point, for if we follow too much, we may not be leading enough.

I haven't had time to really develop this, so it may be woefully incomplete, but hopefully it will help the discussion somewhat.

Unfortunately, Moore very seriously mishandles Scripture. That is a very poor example for her readers.

She is popular because she is a brand-name.

Hi Steve,

You have become our stealth debunker :-) - You swoop down, debunk - generally in a single unsupported statement of debunkery -, and then leave. I'd like a little more meat from your comments - perhaps even some examples. Too much to ask?

Just focusing on the Beth Moore movement:

I don't think that there is any other movement that uses more avenues of communication as well as she does. Beth Moore has built an incredible ministry that gives one the ability to pursue her Bible Study in many ways.

Outside of attending the study (which is very popular, here in Houston), you can buy the book (which is not wildly overpriced - about $13) and go through it yourself. You can get the video to go with it, if you would like. So far, what I've mentioned is pretty normal. But Beth's is one of the first ministries who offers her studies online. You log in, and watch the study over the internet following along with the book in front of you. It's cheaper, more convenient for many, and thereby taps into a segment of the population not pandered to in Christianity. People actually use this. I know of a few people in our church who set up times to log on together and go through the Bible Study.

All this to say that her ministry is excellent in pursuing every available avenue to offer people the opportunity to follow her studies.

While I don't think that I am going against any argument mentioned above, I feel that it is unfair to use Beth Moore's popular ministry as an indication that women are outclassing men. One could easily look at Promise Keepers (whose mailing list I am still on despite never having attended a conference - there's some passion for you) and ask "Why are men outclassing women in the area of bridging the racial and denominational divide and meeting as one body in Christ?" But we don't ask that because we know that just because there isn't a Women's PK doesn't mean that women are doing a poor job of reaching across America for Jesus.

Beth Moore's studies are primarily for Women. Maybe there will be a visionary who begins studies for men and is dynamic enough to offer every possible opportunity for men to experience the same. But there isn't one. While I agree that women seem more classy than men in this area, you show me a great speaker who puts together studies as well as Beth Moore that are relevant to my life and offers it in a format that is easy for me to pursue and I will "rush for sign-ups, sit shoulder to shoulder in an overcrowed living room, discuss what [I]'ve learned outside the classroom, consistently study, and do nightly homework."

I don't know of such a study. The closest thing we've gotten to a movement lately is WAH, and we all know how we feel about that. Is it because of lack of demand? Maybe. Still, Beth is an incredible speaker and (despite what Steve says) seems genuine and precise in her handling of the Word.

My theory is that Men are secretly begging for such a study to exist. They are waiting for someone to stand up and offer it. All we've gotten are John Eldredge's boy scout dreams and you've seen how much men eat that up. Give us somehing real and let's see what happens.

I can hardly pass this up. My business is in the financial/investment area. I know both men and women who are wildly successful in this business. I do not know of a single man or woman who follows anything close to the same business plan to be successful. This leads me to conclude that men and women are wired very very differently in the way they attack and solve problems, but both can be successful. The men tend to be more loners or dominant in their styles. The women tend to be more nurturing and certainly love to network with each other more. Both work. Neither is right or wrong.

Are we not bashing the men here for not adopting the methods of the women? Of course women are going to be more nuturing. They are also going to fill their little notebooks chock of "stuff" that their leader said. They also fall prey to mysticism more often than men, a fault that Beth Moore (for example) has been accused of and her followers lap it up....along with every other word that drops from her lips. And no church authority oversees what she teaches or how she teaches it. She apparently has a direct line to God. That's a bit hard for me to swallow, but zillions of woman swallow it hook, line and sinker.

Hey boys and girls, we all have our weaknesses and men are more prone to some and women are more prone to others. But let's stop comparing the two. That comparison alone would turn the men right off and send us marching out into the world to "do our own thing". We are MEN, guys. Not women.

"And no church authority oversees what she teaches or how she teaches it. She apparently has a direct line to God. That's a bit hard for me to swallow, but zillions of woman swallow it hook, line and sinker."

I'm not sure it's really true that Beth Moore has no accountability. She is very involved in First Baptist Houston and my guess is that she has accountability there. And I would have to be shown where she has engaged in questionable teaching.

I do not know Beth Moore's specific situation, but I would not assume accountability just because there is heavy involvement in a Southern Baptist Church. Maybe because she is such a big name, there is some. On the other hand, maybe because she is such a big name, there is none. It has been my personal experience that you can be heavily involved in a Southern Baptist Church and have no accountability whatsoever as to what you teach. In her case, her accountability involved checking with her pastor. Where was the Deacon's input? My guess is that this lady is such a huge "brand name" that she gets to run the show.

I would also have to be shown where she has engaged in questionable teaching, although I don't plan to look for it. But the way she describes God speaking directly to her and "telling" her what to say raises red flags. It is fertile ground for questionable teaching to catch hold and grow. And she would not be the first.

Thanks Boyce

I'm hopeful that there are more structures for accountability for her than might be expected. But I honestly don't know.

May we all be Bereans - much needed in this day and age.

Thanks for the commentary. Good to hear from you

Commentary? More like uncharitable speculation.

Maybe it's just me, but if all I have to go on in my criticism of a fellow believer in a well established church is a "guess," I hope I would keep it to myself.

I just had to make a comment concerning the leadership of Christian men in America or lack thereof. I think there really is a silent "disease" out there that is eating up our brothers in Christ and satiating their desire to sacrifice themselves to lead. It is pornography and lust. The stats show that it is a mega business and that a high percentage of Christian men are viewing it on the internet. I know I am going to get a lot of guff over this but I really believe this is a huge factor in what is going on with our men. It sucks the life right out of them. It is a slippery slope and only takes one step to fall down and you're hooked. It certainly can be overcome or avoided through Jesus, but a man, yes, even a Christian man, must be diligent to do this. Our culture promotes self-satisfaction and more and more we must swim against the tide to follow our Lord.

I must add though that we Christian women need to support our Christian brothers when they go to stand up to take any form of leadership. I am in a singles group and the second any of our men have tried to do anything, the women are right there criticizing everything they do! Ladies, lets encourage and speak the truth in love and help our brothers! We just might find we have some mighty men growing up in the faith! :)

Christine

Definitely a combination of a cultural shift of women into leadership positions in all area of life - and men taking a back seat. Somehow they have bought the lie of political correctness that it's ok to have women lead spiritually. Women need to step back and let the men lead - even though difficult at first. They need encouragement and prayer to hunger for where God would have them be. Also - men are definitely being choked by the cares of this world and "providing" for family is getting mixed up with lust and greed by the family.