Aren't most evangelicals attacking that Miss California for being in a bikini on TV? Most that I have read aren't really that supportive of her.

Of course, I never read much of Dobson, so maybe I am missing something.

Why anybody cares what Miss California says or does is beyond me.

Eloquorus, my wife and I work with singles at our church and I know where you're coming from.

But, indulge me here: Who's this "we" and "our"?

If Marriage was "our" (I suppose you mean the evangelical church) God, we wouldn't have a 50% divorce rate and we wouldn't tolerate divorce or adultery in "our" churches.

Good grief.

Everything that happens in the news, everything that Dobson says, every person who earns 15 minutes of fame, doesn't have to be a harbinger of how hypocritical "we" all are. What are Christians supposed to do here? Start a grand campaign against bikinis? If we did that, everyone would be going nuts about that too.

Because, of course, everything always gets turned back to a slam on the church. Ev.Ry.Thing.

Marriage isn't our God. If it was, marriage would be valued.

But for God's sake, we better start taking it more seriously. Forget the bikini. If the American church wants to have any credibility on moral issues, we better start with our own house. We could start with keeping our vows.

Rant over.

The Ev. attitude is that the gals should always be modest and cover up, unless they are really, really, hot. I'm familiar with a chapter of a national college ministry where the gals were told all the time to be modest and cover up. Then this beauty queen (literally) started coming to the meetings and got saved. She kept going to the pageants, complete with swimsuit competition, and won some big thing or another. The staff members of the group were all smiles, and made a big deal of it. Even though all the other gals were still supposed to be modest and cover up.

But then, where do you draw the line? I mean, any effort a gal makes to look "nice" can be construed by someone out there as an effort to incite lust. For my part, I've just decided that pageants are not something I need to watch or think about. I'll let God sort 'em out.

I really haven't heard Dobson on this issue, but I'm guessing he's thinking that the swimsuit competition is going to happen with or without anything he says. But he wants to support someone who had the courage to speak up on this issue, in the right way, in a very public context.


Eloquorius,

Marriage. Is. Our. GOD!

I don't know how else to say it, how else to explain it, or what better example to give. None dare call it the "familyolotry" that is it, but it is.

You know, I could have written this myself. But, well, I know I'm clueless, but I don't really see a strong relevance to the topic at hand.

Bill,

If Marriage was "our" (I suppose you mean the evangelical church) God, we wouldn't have a 50% divorce rate ...

Now I'm going off on my own tangent, but righties and lefties alike need to know that that 50% statistic is waaaaay overblown. The divorce rate is much higher than we would like, but not nearly 50%. I can give more details if you want. Otherwise, I won't harp any further.

... and we wouldn't tolerate divorce or adultery in "our" churches.

With you on the adultery thing. One of the nation's biggest fundie pastors is married to a second wife. His first marriage ended because of his adultery. But day after day he gets on his TV show and rails against the immorality of modern America, and his audience eats it up. About divorce, well, it's one place where the church can't win. If let it go, we're hypocrites. If we tell the divorcees to leave or undergo some kind of church discipline, then we're "the only army in the word that shoots its own wounded" as the saying goes. How to stand against divorce but minister to the divorced, who are often hurting pretty bad, is a tough call to make.

Because, of course, everything always gets turned back to a slam on the church. Ev.Ry.Thing.

@Bill:

If Marriage was "our" (I suppose you mean the evangelical church) God, we wouldn't have a 50% divorce rate and we wouldn't tolerate divorce or adultery in "our" churches. Good grief.

Man, I must be losing my edge that I cannot find it in myself to get worked up by any angle of this story. I posted something about it over at my blog, mainly in her defense, inspired by a Christian blog that denies the sinfulness of homosexuality that was participating in basically destroying her. I was angered because I couldnt' figure out why we all needed to know her parents had a bitter divorce. She is against gay marriage . . . so we must expose anything that might shame and embarrass her.

I'm pretty ambivalent about beauty pageants. I think they're pretty stupid and I don't watch them, but I can't get into the campaign for modesty against them. When it comes right down to it any sport or talent people demonstrate for the purpose of entertainment or money or renown is equally prideful and immodest. Do we really need to watch dudes in Speedos swim fast?

I don't know.
Like I said, I'm finding it hard to care now about any angle here. She'll be used by some Christians, criticized by others, hated by the world.

What's the right response?

I liked what Ray Ortlund posted at his blog. It's short, so I'll reprint it here:

So a few years ago she did something wrong. A world of love would say, "Let's bury this and give her her life back. She can still have a great future. God bless her." But the actual world we live in, this merciless world, says, "Let's embarrass her and shame her and destroy her."

Thank God for God the merciful. All who, like her, like me, need mercy should stand together with defiant trust in him. He will have the final word, a very happy word.

If I can repeat myself, a church has to find some way to minister to divorced people, but state firmly that divorce is at best unfortunate and, these days, usually just wrong. Doing both of these things at the same time is not easy, but I don't see how we have any choice but to try.

If Marriage was "our" (...)we wouldn't tolerate divorce or adultery in "our" churches.

I could really do without your judgementalism, frankly.

I'm gonna sound like the anti-puritan here, but I just think that there are bigger issues facing our faith today than bikinis and gay marriage.

......so I don't think there's an incongruity. I would have preferred hearing that the girl wore a one piece (as some have actually done in that pageant) and said something like "Jesus loves people no matter who they marry, but I'm probably gonna marry a guy".......I think that would be perfect.

Blonde bombshells in beauty contests venture onto shaky ground when they come down on either side of a political issue - that's just not the venue we should go to if we're looking for sound reasoning.

For what it's worth: (and at this point I don't think anyone's listening to me anymore, but I'll try again).

I NEVER have come out in favor of graceless, judgemental, one-size-fits-all condemnation or church discipline toward all divorcees. I realize this is a very, very touchy subject.

I am frustrated, though, at the amount of divorce in the church (and I'd love to see stats that say that our rate is lower than the world. I mean that literally - I would LOVE to see that and I hope it's true. I WANT to be wrong).

I also certainly would NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER turn away a divorced person from church, or hold them up to public ridicule, or persecute them, or stone them, or do any one of the hundred other vile things that those of you who have taken me to task seem to think I might do.

For God's sake, the church needs to love divorced people.

What I am saying (and all I am saying) is that divorce among Christians is an awful, awful thing. It hurts them, it hurts their kids, it hurts the church. Just like any sin does. I want the church to make whatever strides are necessary so that the church begins to distinguish herself as a place where vows are taken seriously, and where divorce is rare (again, among professing Christians).

I understand and have seen and grieve over abuse, adultery, abandonment. If you are divorced and have been the victim of any one of these things, trust me, I weep with you.

On the other hand, if you are a man who left his wife and kids because you found a better model, you need church discipline and possibly need to be ejected from the church and handed over to satan.

That's all I'm saying. Please, everyone, put the rocks down.

I really don't think you and I are in conflict.

Yeah, Bill, I'm afraid we are.

Sin destroys families.

You say, "divorce is a travesty", I looked at a divorced person and wonder what is behind it before I say that his/her divorce was a travesty.

You say, "divorce is a sin", I say that God sent Israel away with a writ of divorce because of her sin.

I asked, "what did you learn and how have you changed?"

And I fell head over heels with a divorced man. I know how the church "loves" divorced people...because I want to feel his pain along side of him...

this day. here.

Thanks Jared. And I realize I'm just arguing past people at this point.

MzEllen - I highly respect your opinion and I'm sorry we don't see eye to eye. I still haven't figured out where, though - I agree with what you've written. I think I just have written inexpertly.

For some common ground (if that's even possible at this point):

Sin destroys families. I completely agree.

You say, "divorce is a travesty", I looked at a divorced person and wonder what is behind it before I say that his/her divorce was a travesty.

I agree. The reason behind a divorce is hugely relevant to this conversation. In my defense, I was speaking broadly. I stand behind that because, broadly speaking, I don't think there are very many good divorces.

You say, "divorce is a sin", I say that God sent Israel away with a writ of divorce because of her sin.

I've never heard that defense of divorce before. I know what you're saying, I don't disagree, and I know there are a few biblical reasons for divorce. Adultery, for one, which was God's justification here. I also know that God hates divorce.

And I fell head over heels with a divorced man. I know how the church "loves" divorced people...because I want to feel his pain along side of him...

And I now understand better how I offended you. I am sorry.

Got to agree.

I'm not sure how a beauty pageant contestant became the new spokesmodel for traditional values ... and it's not a good thing.

After all the explanations are done, yes. After.

I find myself sharing pain - and know that many times the tears I shed over the pain of another is caused by the first words that come out of another believer's mouth.

Today I weep. Over sin, over pain and over a stigma that will never be forgotten, even though it's covered with Blood.

1) Can a believer hold and teach a strong line against divorce

OK...did I break the blog?

As a lady who has been divorced for a month now I can say that unless the shunning is about to happen and the stones are in the mail it’s all good here.

I will say that divorce hurt all in its path. I will also say that to stay in a situation that was killing me would have hurt my children more if I would have stayed with him.

As for my church the shepherds mishandled the very public affair and I let them know it rather loudly. I couldn’t walk out knowing that they might think it was ok.
When my divorce became public they rallied around me with love and support. I suppose that it helped knowing all the people involved and knowing about my ex’s affair. After all a shepherd’s wife and the psy ops leader are rather well known in the church.

How do you handle a divorce in church? You treat them as you would want to be treated. Remember my children. It’s painful enough without the minister treating you like a scarlet woman. I was treated differently by two men. I doubt that they knew of the distance, I work with both of them rather closely so it was a bit odd for a time. I just forged on and they both are great to work with now. I will be talking with one being that he is now my minister so that he will be aware of how he was. One of the men I work with let me cry, he would work around me while I sat and cried for several Sundays. I needed to feel that I was helping in some small way but unable to hold it together.

I have no doubt that we will always make mistakes on handling divorce in a church but remember it’s a death and we have to grieve. Most of us have tried to save the marriage so having a minister tell us how we need to try harder is another stab. And being told to stay when we are being abused is a crime. I’ve been cursed and he has punched the wall by my head a few times. The thing is that I felt stupid for not realizing how abusive he was. I remember the moment it dawned on me I felt sick. I called my dad and said “Dad I think I’ve been in an abusive relationship.” He said it sounds like it. If my minister would have tried to save the marriage at that point I would have been hurt more and walked from that church. Thank God he didn’t. He spoke softly to me about how he felt and how he would do whatever I needed. I offered to step out of me position and he said that the shepherds weren’t talking about it and he was fine with me staying.

So I’ve now written a post. :-} chatty me.

We need love and support we need to know that you love us.

Repeating the Biblical truth that "divorce is wrong" is not wrong. There is one exception to that given by Jesus, and he explained why that exception was there--it's not a complimentary reason. That said, the decision to get a divorce is situational. I fully support the physically abused and even those on whom their spouse is cheating if they choose to get a divorce. I want to protect them and their children. I won't say what I want to do to their demon-possessed spouses, but it isn't polite. For those of you who have been and are being abused you have my sympathy and support.

My mom was divorced twice and it was horrible. I'm 40-whatever years old and it still impacts my life. My two sisters went through heck on earth as well as a result. I was also raised in the Catholic Church, and went to a Catholic elementary school. So as a very young child I saw the other children treat me differently after the divorce. I spent hours as a 10-11 year old planning how I would get married and never get divorced. That colored my thinking, impacted my life, and relationship with my spouse before and after we were married. I will hit 20 years next week. If I accomplish nothing else with my messed up life, I want to die being married to the same woman I married 20 years ago.

The question remains on whether a hard teaching can be ignored because it is hard. Do we address the cause of divorce and implement the Biblical consequences for those who are divorced or do we blow it off? Is it mandatory that we conflate ill-treatment of those who have been through divorce with speaking on the evil that is divorce? I don't think so. God sure doesn't. I pay temporal consequences for my sins. That is a guarantee that is found in Scripture. I will escape eternal judgment due purely to the Grace and Mercy of the Blood of the Lamb. However, despite my sins, God still loves and blesses me daily. The Holy Spirit convicts me and brings my sin to my mind so that I can repent and restore fellowship with a Holy God. I don't like that part.

Also, since when can we pick and choose the parts of God's Word to obey? I.e. (when I am in sin) We should always forgive and love each other and let us continue doing whatever we are doing (restoration?). What about the part that says anyone who divorces should not remarry? Or the part that says leaders of the church should exhibit self-control and be the husband of one wife? If there are other Scriptures which elaborate on these directives or allow them to be interpreted differently, please let me know.

Milly, the point is that whether or not he (or she) is right (or wrong), my friend (or her husband) will still face the "consequences" of a divorce that was not her choice.

MzEllen,

I agree with much of what you said, particularly,

If a woman opened her arms and her heart and her bed to her husband with joy...how many husbands would be tempted by an air-brushed photo of Miss California....

But let a woman kick her husband out onto the couch...he falls to the internet and she becomes the darling of the women's group and the object of support and sympathy. (I know this from being in a woman's group)

It is so refreshing for me to hear someone other than myself, and a woman in particular, say this. (Before anyone gripes back at me, yes, men do some awful, awful things in marriage. But no one ever talks about the kinds of things MzEllen has said here.)

But I'm still in Bill's corner here. I think the major point of "disconnect" that I have with you is with

5) By treating divorce as the problem (broadly speaking, of course), you broadly accuse all of those wonderful Christians who had no choice in the matter ...

In a literal, "logico-linguistic" sense, maybe. But given that 1) blog comments generally have to be short and the writer often can't spell out everything (yours is about the longest I've seen :) ), 2) plenty of churches are mean to divorced people, but plenty of others turn a blind eye to it, and that trend is getting worse, 3) Bill seems to be a reasonable guy, from what I can tell over the internet, I could infer pretty confidently from the get-go that he was talking about the kind of divorce motivated by, "I got married too young, before I understood what I really wanted," and, "I just had to admit it, our lives are going in different directions now," and that kind of thing. Almost all preachers I have heard preach on divorce make that distinction explicitly. I know only two people who believe that divorce is wrong even in the face of adultery.

One other point of disagreement:

2) Make sin that leads to divorce worse than the divorce.
Nothing "leads to" divorce. Divorce is a choice. If it is a choice made by, for example, a spouse who is tired of being cheated on, it is legitimate and is not a sin at all. If it is a choice made by, for instance, a spouse who says, "I just feel that I need room to discover who I truly am," then it is a sinful choice. It is the choice that finally kills the covenant. So, as far as I can tell, there are still alot of divorces we should preach against.

Minster to the divorced. Preach that divorce is a sin, except in extreme circumstances. Not easy to do both, but we have to try. That's how I see it.

Jared and Bob,

Thanks - you've both said (way better than I could) what I have been trying to say. I really appreciate it.

MzEllen - after reflection, you are correct that we don't see eye to eye, in some significant ways. But, for what it's worth, I've gained from this conversation. So I do appreciate your insights, and I hope and pray that I will be more gracious on this extremely sensitive subject.

Jared, sorry, Bill asked a question and I guess my answer was too long.

I believe death is a tragedy.

For believers, it's also the invitation to the wedding feast.

Death (like divorce) is the penalty for sin. It's not the sin.

How does the church treat divorce? Awesome question! How about attack the causes? Those causes are apparent before marriage. How about we instill an awe for marriage in our kiddos? How about modeling a covenant relationship for them? Teaching them that marriage and "in love" are not equivalent. Marriage is forever. Therefore, if marriage is forever, to whom you choose to yoke yourself is of VITAL importance! My goal is to make sure that no girl winds up marrying a boy that would end up treating her with anything but honor. No girl should have to endure that.

Next, marrying a young vibrant 20 year old who is beautiful and vivacious is easy. I counsel kids thinking of marriage that you are marrying an 85 year old semi-invalid with Alzheimers whose diaper you have to change every few hours. Can they say "I do" to that? If not, then I tell them they are not ready. Go away and come back when they grow up. It is about commitment. It is about burning the ships and leaving no outs.

It's scary. That's good. Does that sound bad? Good! Divorce is a billion times worse. That awesome macho jock-dude who looks like a model, is a leader at the school, and is "like sooooo cuute!" can easily turn into the abusive drunk who demands attention and retaliates violently. If marriage is scary, it commands a little more attention to discernment prior to the commitment. Here's a thought: How about a pastor that refuses to marry two kids who he doesn't believe have discernment?

Shouldn't we also be looking at dating? What is the purpose? Do we just giggle and tease these young kids about "going out" as if it's not a serious precursor to a Holy institution? The answer is yes. I see it all the time. Parents and busy-body adults either embarrassing or making light of a hugely serious relationship. What are we telling our kids with that?

As for divorce rates, I can't believe we're debating percentage points. Ridiculous. "Well Doctor, only 30 percent of his body was dissolved in acid whereas before we thought it was 50 percent." You have to be kidding. I don't go by stats. I watch it played out in my church and the other churches to which my friends go. It is more than zero and abuse has played a part in way less than half. Most are "irreconcilable differences" which is bologna sausage for trading up for a newer model. Well, that is divorce #1 anyway. I believe the subsequent divorces are just rubber stamped "dittos". Divorce rate above zero is dishonoring God. And, from a strategic standpoint, it is dismantling the infrastructure on which God has placed a lot of the load for support, nurturing, encouragement, and education. If I'm Satan, I love it! (I need to reread the Screwtape Letters). I still say that divorce is Satan's nuclear weapon. The ripples of each divorce travel not only through the current generation but impact future generations as well.

Lastly, we spend tens of thousands of $$$s on weddings. I see a wedding and think big woop. Who cares. I would rather see a multi-thousand dollar celebration extravaganza for the couple who just hit their 50 year anniversary. THAT is the goal. THAT is the objective for which we strive in marriage. The size of the wedding and the cost of the ring is irrelevant and distracting. Anybody can get married. It's the heroes that stay together and make it work in love and commitment. I try to avoid weddings whenever possible. However when Bill recently renewed his vows at his 20 year anniversary, I would have crawled over broken glass to honor that. I cried. It was beyond thrilling to attend. [Here's to the next 20 years, Bill! :-)]

Bill is dead-on correct about divorce in the church. Instead of nit-picking and quibbling over intent (btw, Bill has given his life to others. He is as pure a servant as I have known and daily sacrifices his own time to love, help, and serve others), can we as Christians give a hearty Amen? Unfortunately, I am extraordinarily passionate about the subject. To the editors, if you think it better to delete these rants, I will take no offense.

Hypocrisy: The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess; falseness.

On Miss California. News Flash: There are Christians who have incorrect ideas on some Biblical exhortations. I'm sure I do! :-) We are broken people. I have long thought that beauty pageants are ridiculous in that they glorify the temporal, material things that to a large degree aren't earned by folks. So, for those who think she tends to be immodest, I happen to agree with you. For those who think that there's nothing wrong with celebrating the beauty of the human body and she didn't do anything wrong, I can't muster enough energy or interest to disagree.

However, the things I DO find interesting about her actions in this case are: 1) she spoke what she believed in the face of adversity, certain controversy, and inevitable criticism--that exhibits courage; 2) she took a stance on marriage that happens to be parallel to mine.

I wonder if there's a parallel with Jonah. He who refused to follow God's orders to take His message to Ninevah, ended up taking a message to Ninevah telling them to repent and follow God's orders. Weird. But, the immediate impact on Ninevah was still pretty significant. :-)

Milly, I will absolutely not blame you for something that you did not do.

WHEN the sin happens, do you suggest we ignore it because it's not your sin?

It happens too many times to suggest that we start looking elsewhere because it was not an issue in you marriage. Because I know there are many marriages where it is an issue.

side note on 30 days of sex... That isn't even Biblical. At least not in the OT. I believe that about every fourth week it is expressly prohibited.

At least that's how I read Lev 18:19. But, as always, I could be wrong.

My personal opinion is that the guy who came up with this program was just a tad self-serving. May not have been as "in the Spirit" that day maybe.

MzEllen,

Very relevant Biblical reference and absolutely a good point. I'm sorry if I came across as ignoring that.

My concern is with those who would demand performance from others. Use that verse to compel others to provide a benefit to themselves. That in my opinion is much more of a problem today than the other way around. The Biblical reference to which you refer, as are most exhortations are personal. I take it to mean that I need to take care to consider the other person.

I was also going in the context of the 30 days idea. I think there is some sort of middle ground between being denied and going 30 consecutive days. I just can't imagine after 29 days pouting to myself over how I'm being denied on that 30th day.

Sorry. I know you are coming at this from a different perspective. I'm a guy and fear the temptation to abuse that verse through manipulation of my spouse. Because of that, I come down pretty hard on the man. From what I know, 90% of the time the man is denied is because he's a jerk.

I'm looking at the command that I love my wife as Christ loved the Church and that intimidates the absolute tar out of me because I have a small inkling of what Jesus did for me and what He gave up for me. I am a massively pathetic example of that, but nonetheless that is where the bar is and therefore that is my goal. From my perspective, if I serve and honor and lift up my wife, it will naturally reduce obstacles and facilitate not being denied. But that is secondary for me.

For what it's worth, I blame men for most problems. If a woman has a problem, I blame some man for it. I'm probably theologically wrong there, but that's my operating principle.

MzEllen,

You are exactly correct. I will admit that I irrationally blame the husband.

I absolutely agree with your comment on dealing with the sin. Where possible, if we are better at dealing with the sin that precedes divorce, we may even be able to salvage the marriage.

One statement I've heard before from people who should know is that in many divorce situations, not all, there is not just one side to the story. It may not just be the sin of one partner. It could be compounded. I have a hard time with that. Mostly because I always blame the man. Just wondering what insight you have on that subject.

Also, I admit I'm a techno-dweeb. I see a problem in a program, I may grouse a little, but in the end I just want to fix it and move on. I say all that to say that I don't look at divorce as a blame game. The end result should not be blame. We all commit sin and we are all imperfect people. I look at it more from acknowledging the actions/inactions that led to the divorce and seeing what actions can be taken to restore and prevent future such problems. I don't see just blaming somebody as helping anybody. Identify the problem-->Solve the problem. Easier said than done, but that's the life of Brian.

btw, everything I said here about not blaming was directed mostly at the woman. I of course blame the man. Irrationally so, perhaps.

Sad but true. :-(

Still, no pity party here. If its a war they want!!! Rawr!

Seriously, I know what you are saying. How about if we make a deal: I'll work on refining the men to be Godly men, and you work on the women and we'll meet in the middle. :-)

Yea! 61 comments! Who da' man?

I'm just saying, "deal with the one who is sinning".

Thank you, MzEllen! When I get on my high horse about men in the church, and in the family, please hear me saying exactly this, with the rider that, no, you cannot operate under the presumption that it is the man who is sinning.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled program:

Blonde bombshells in beauty contests venture onto shaky ground when they come down on either side of a political issue - that's just not the venue we should go to if we're looking for sound reasoning.
and
I'm not sure how a beauty pageant contestant became the new spokesmodel for traditional values ... and it's not a good thing.

Exactly! Which is exactly why the question put to Ms. Prejean in the pageant was completely inappropriate. That question, which she had no control over, is what started the whole mess. I won't go to her for political commentary on a regular basis, but I still say kudos to her for showing some guts in a situation that she could not control, and which never should have arisen.

Bird! Dude! 65 comments now!
YOU da Man!