Great post, Bill.

I'd been meaning to post this for a while, but this comment will suffice: In my recent re-reading of Bonhoeffer's "Life Together," I came across a paragraph about the "state of the church" I must have missed the first time. In it, Bonhoeffer says we should never be taking the temperature of the church; it's not our business. The problem of the condition of the Church is God's, not ours. (In another passage, he says pastors should never complain about their congregations, neither to God or to others. But that's another ball of worms entirely . . . ;-)

I was surprised and convicted that a German minister in a time and land when one's chief complaint about the Church could be that it wasn't saying or doing much to stall attempted genocide would say that. It made me think of the blogosphere, wherein nearly every blogger is an expert on What's Wrong with the Church. I'm guilty of that myself.

The real problem, of course, is that the Church is full of people like me. And you. And every other Christian blogger.
Which isn't to say we can't ever criticize. But maybe Bonhoeffer's right that we shouldn't be constantly taking the Church's temperature, as if the sliver of our generation represents the whole of God's plan for her. Because she will prevail.

Anyways, good stuff, man.

"But maybe Bonhoeffer's right that we shouldn't be constantly taking the Church's temperature, as if the sliver of our generation represents the whole of God's plan for her. Because she will prevail."

Well said, Jared!

Jewel,
I know this post has been rattling inside you for years now...because every now and then, little proto-pieces have come out. I'm glad you finally wrote what you were called and meant to write.

You are right. The Bride is beautiful. (And by the way, so is your heart.)

Thanks, Jewel.

Thanks for the reminder, Bill. We are His and His alone - not our own. If that makes sense.

He cares far more about His Bride than we do.

Bill, I can't wait to meet you in heaven someday. You are a great guy.

What a fantastic post and one that should convict us all. I know it did me. I was thinking in the shower this morning that maybe I should lay off my heavy-handed crticisms of people I don't exactly see eye-to-eye with because they'll more than likely be in heaven too and I better learn to love them now. :-)

Good post. I note that your description of the church seems to mostly refer to local congregations. As a congregationalist Lutheran, I (personally) think that's as it should be. About the national and international organizations that call themselves Churches, the less said the better, imho. But that's my prejudice.

True fellowship is the heart of the church ... loving God and loving each other ... that is beautiful.

Yhank you!

I have heard folks cut down the "pew sitters" "Hay!" is my responce "They are here loving God who do you think you are to judge them you don't know what the journey is."

I truely love Sundays I get to be with all those wonderful Jesus lovers. Loving HIM. That's what I love about Sundays.

Thank you so much for saying this, Bill.

Just this week I was saddened (again) by running across a post containing a long list of names of famous Christians that the author of the post considered heretics, apostates, etc., etc. I realize we must be discerning and at times point out what we believe is error--but I have had just about all I can take reading on the Internet about which Christians and which denominations have a right to bear the name of Christ. I am all for looking at a particular teaching or practice to see whether it holds water in the light of Scripture. But as for judging, criticizing and griping about people and churches--who are we to judge someone else's servant(Romans 14:4)?

Chuck Colson's book Being the Body has a great passage on the beauty of the Body of Christ that is too long to post but his book is another good one on this subject.

OOPS it was THANK YOU!

Thanks!

You're right - the Bride is beautiful. Because the Bride is made up of fallen people on a fallen world, problems need to be identified so they can be addressed properly and we do need to "test the spirits" to make sure that we are not diving into heresy. However, there is a fine line between that and criticism for the sake of criticism alone. I have often gotten the impression (myself included) that we criticize more because we want to look better than "that one" rather than honestly looking for a way to help a fellow Christian along a very rocky path.

In response to this sort of thing, my grandfather always noted that, when we get to heaven, we will be shocked as to who is there and who isn't. We are not in any position to judge - only God knows the heart.

Great topic, Bill. (Or do you go by the name "De". or is it "Jewel", as Shrode called you?

Perhaps "Sybil" is more all encompassing. Give it some thought. :-)

There are so many thoughts that flash through my head and heart about this topic it is hard to communicate it all. So if this comes across "choppy" just assume my mind went "fragmentiod" on me.

I agree that there should be almost no criticisms toward brothers and sisters in Christ's Bride. They are usaully prompted by our own quirkiness, anyway.

Because of the recent changes I've made, I am convinced that the one thing that is so desperately needed is for each member of the Bride to do his/her part to keep the Bride of Christ pure and free from sin. If I had been doing that in my own life, then the Bride would be just that much more radiant. I have had MANY conversations lately with brothers who are not walking with Christ because of the same sins that dogged me for years. I offer them a couple of open ears and a closed mouth, and they are able to "Ctrl-Alt-Delete" reboot their spiritual lives and fly again.

How many more of us are walking around carrying baggage that is putting "drag" on the Bride? (That's a fishing analogy, by the way.) The Bride will not be "holy"a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish"" (Ephes. 5) until we do it individually, (and I'll throw on top of that our willingness to be open and vulnerable with each other).

I understand that the passage is talking about the husband (Jesus) loving the Church. He is doing His part as a great Husband. But in a marriage, the bride is also responsible for keeping herself spiritual and free of sin.

And we are that Bride.

Boy"this is such a fantastic topic that I want to keep going.

Thanks Danny K and all.

Regarding my name. I was Bill. I was then dubbed "Jewel" by Jared in 1995. Over the years, I became a cubic zirconia and then was uncermoniously expelled from the Thinklings and my name became De. It's kind of a Smeagol/Gollum transition I made.

Through much supplication I was reinstated, grudgingly, by the mighty Rod in 2005, with the stipulation that De will remain forever my moniker.

That being said, considering how I often manifest a third-person narrator, perhaps Sy-Bill is a decent nickname for me.

[De sits back, pondering the possibilities . . .]

De: You are a JEWEL.

Jared and Bill already know this, but just in case anyone else wants to know. When Jared restored Jewel to thinkling status and decreed that "De" should forever be his name, I felt that wasn't quite good enough, so while I've accepted Jared's decree as the status quo, my own campaign for Bill to be re-instated is now expressed by continuing to call him Jewel. (A name he owns, embodies and deserves.) It's kind of like wearing an armband in a b-ball game or a ribbon at the Oscars, I guess...

Jewel is a jewel.

Thanks Shrode - you're a great friend.

And you too, Rich - I appreciate the support!

'sniff'...'sniff'

Nicely done!

I believe the church is beautiful because it cost the Creator of the Universe so high a price. While I rarely choose to look at it this way (to my shame, btw), I read De's post and feel the anticipation with which the church as a body awaits the coming of the Bridegroom.

I also see beauty in that no matter how ugly the warts are, there is One who is coming who will make all that go away. One who will restore the broken and worthless to perfect newness. I can only imagine... ;-)

As for criticism, I dislike using that word because it has a very harsh, unyielding, and unloving connotation. My belief is that when I speak out against the action of another believer, I am going to be held responsible for:
1) speaking from the truth in scripture, and not from my personal opinion
2) loving that person more than myself and wanting them to succeed in their Christian walk more than anything else

Love should include direct language and honesty, but it definitely also includes a deep and sincere empathy for the other individual as well as a willingness to invest myself in them. As more and more moons go by in my life, I have been granted the blessing of seeing how my Father deals with me. I've seen Him be patient. I've seen Him be kind. Through all of the idiocies that comprise my life (if there's to be videos shown during judgement time in heaven, they'll have to show my life in fast forward or eternity will be too short to fit all the dumb stuff in...), I've felt the loving hand of Him who watches over me and holds me. This understanding has held my tongue and many times guided my interaction with others in ways that, I think, coincide with His will that we strive for unity as well as purity. Perhaps I've held back too much from speaking out, but the same Spirit that guided me back to the Light is still in the world. Is still all powerful. And can still reach the hardest of hearts...all without Brian's 2 cents...and that's a good thing! :-)

OK, I know nothing about this discussion, or even what thinklings is (I was sent here by someone who thought it was a worthy post to read), but here's what I've found in my 5 decades of living: 4 of it attending "church," and now this last decade without attending "church".

There are people and groups in this world who show more of God's goodnss, kindness and follow his directives than most of the "church" members I've met. Frankly, I think God's church--in the sense of the people who gather in a building--is quite broke. They've strayed too far from Biblical principles from what I can see.

I am now loosely affliated with a group that most "Christians" wouldn't reach out to because they are afraid of them. Yet these people are more kind, more loving, more compassionate than any church attending person I've known. They take care of each other, which is more than I can say about any "church" I've ever attended.

Jared says we are not to take the temperature of the church, perhaps that is so in judging and criticism, but what if you're not being fed? What if you are being downtrodden by those who are supposed to be lifting you up? How long can one exist, let alone thrive, in an environment like that?

Just the viewpoint from my side of the world.....

Thanks Sarah

I'd be interested to hear more about the group you are affiliated with. Can you give us more info?

I'm sorry your church experiences have been bad.

Bill --

I found your post via Best of the GodBlogs, and they have pre-emptively called it one of the best 7 blog posts of 2006. So kudos for getting nominated real good.

I have read through your post 3 times now and have mulled it over because my knee-jerk response to this kind of post is, "Max Lucado already does it better." And the reason Max does it better is that he doesn't try to couch philosophical criticism under the cover of Helen Steiner Rice platitudes.

What I am talking about is the interesting statement you make when you say, "Of course, the church isn't a building. It's people. Including those beloved and sweet people who enthusiastically read Your Best Life Now or Left Behind and who are, unbeknownst to them (because they don't really care about the blogosphere), laughed at. By snobs like us."

"By snobs like us"? I'm not sure that the use of self-denigration in "us" here mitigates the philosophical concern that it is snobbery to (as you say) "laugh" at those who read YBLN or LB and think themselves spiritually-enriched. You did pick two keen examples of things we can laugh at (rightly), but if we are rightly laughing at them, how is that snobbery? How is it snobbery, as you continue down in your brief essay, to object to immature believers demanding to lead worship as they are lead by their emotions? I think it is overstated at best to call the premise that the mature should lead the immature "snobbery", but I'd be interested in someone who could demonstrate otherwise.

But that's my knee-jerk reaction. After consideration, I think you make a much worse mistake -- and that is mixing together necessary, humble things like working in a benevolence kitchen and doing the physical work around the church with randy, damaging things like EC pseudo-monasticism and Charismatic experiential excesses. I would suggest to you, without confiscating the blog meta here, that you are personally confusing the wheat with the tares. If your premise is sound -- that the bride is right now beautiful -- it cannot be because she is lost among the foolish virgins: it is because she is the bride and cannot be confused with those who reject her Groom.

Listen: I would say with you that I love the church -- no question that one of the marks of the believer is love of the church not only in theory but in fact, by action. But what is one of the hallmarks of love of the church? The book of Hebrews says, "23Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful. 24And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near."

Holding fast to our confession of faith; stir one another to do good; meeting together to encourage each other. In that, criticism is not snobbery: it is itself love -- because criticism is not just saying, "man, that's bad" but also "because this is what is good."

I think it is somewhat phony to believe that the only way to love is to white-wash the problems; I also think it is phony to believe that confusing the right with the wrong -- or saying that the distinction is arbitrary or unimportant -- is a kind of loving response.

Sorry to be a nay-sayer. I think your view here is simplistic and gives comfort to those who need to be less comfortable with what they think the believe.

As I waited for the server to take my comment, I also thought:

As for your closing note that some at BHT are thinking about abandoning the monicker "Christian", what could I possibly say about that which would not be perceived as taking a shot at them? If they didn't mind being called "Christians" when they knew Christianity had a history which included anti-semites, crusaders, auto-flagilists, pardoners (in the Chaucerian sense), inquisitionists and witch-burners, but now suddenly because the popular modern church has a serious case of stupid they are too good for the family name, the point of view speaks for itself.

Frank...

>If they didn't mind being called "Christians" when they knew Christianity had a history which included anti-semites, crusaders, auto-flagilists, pardoners (in the Chaucerian sense), inquisitionists and witch-burners, but now suddenly because the popular modern church has a serious case of stupid they are too good for the family name, the point of view speaks for itself.

I would encourage you to find out what is actually going on before you type this sort of characterization of the fellows at the bht.

There is ONE person who has made this, and that over the considerable objections of his friends at the bht.

Mischaracterizing the BHT is part of being in the blogosphere, but if it can be avoided....could we avoid it?

Here is a post at IM about what leif is doing. I would encourage you to read it, as well as the comments.

http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/whats-in-a-name

Oddly, Michael, Bill was the one who said it was BHT that was tossing around the idea of dropping the name "Christian". That's where I got the idea.

If it was only one guy -- well, it turn out it was one guy, and then you defending him as the Bible is (in your words) "on his side" -- then take it up with Bill. He said "posts (plural) like this one".

And, of course, what I said was perceived as taking a shot at you.

It was my mistake to mischaracterize what was going on over at the BHT as applying to all of them. I have removed that portion of this post.

My apologies to the BHT.

"but if we are rightly laughing at them, how is that snobbery?"

Would someone please explain to me when the right time is for a Christian to laugh at a brother, or for that matter, at any person? I'm obviously missing out on a lot of fun.

Absolutely, I think the Bride is beautiful. The problem is that we have a boatload of hung-over bridesmaids that think it's their wedding. I don't mean to sound "snobbish", but face it; there are millions of people out there who think they are Christians but have never even heard a clear presentation of the gospel. Or, they hear it, corrupt it, and accept it on their own terms. You know: the "I'm a good person so I'm going to heaven" crew or the "there are many paths to God" group.

But, are all local (or mega) churches beautiful? Well, probably not. For example, I'm sure there are many wonderful Christians that attend Osteen's pep rally every Sunday. And, I'm sure that some people have actually become Christians while attending the services there. But, he's not a preacher; he doesn't present the gospel. He's a motivational speaker. He teaches people to believe in themselves (pride) as opposed trusting Christ (faith). Occasionally, I will flip over to his program while I wait for my wife to get ready for church. And, every time I do, it breaks my heart. Here is an incredible opportunity to reach untold thousands and it's blown week-in, week-out. Is Lakewood beautiful? Not through the lense of the gospel. Is it the bride or the hung-over bridesmaid? I don't know. But, do I laugh at them? No way. (That doesn't make me not a snob.)

De mentioned charismatics and "pew olympics". Are they beautiful? Absolutely. True faith is always beautiful. I disagree with some of their theology, but for the most part it's not the sort of thing that I would fall on my sword over (other than the "second blessing" thingy). Would I attend a service at a charismatic church? Probably. Would I pole vault over the pulpit? Probably not.

De also mentioned the persecuted folks in China, Nigeria, and Saudi Arabia. Man, they're the real deal. Those are the folks that I don't feel worthy to untie their sandals. And, no, I'm not being self-deprecating, I'm just exaggerating a little. I have undescribable respect for anyone who sticks to their faith through persecution.

The bride is beautiful...

not because the people in her are so wonderful (we're not) but because she's cleansed by the Blood of the Lamb.

Is the Bride Beautiful? Yes! That was an excellent short article and incredibly written in a most timely fashion. the words have long been needed, but most, including myself have been either unsure of what to say or to offend, or just plain afraid to speak up. Yes the Bride is beautiful when you consider the makeup of the Body of Christ. Why the Body of Christ you say? The Bride and the Body of Christ are one and the same, what part of the Body of Christ are you today? All are called to come apart, show the world the true picture of our Lord & Savior. Show the world that we serve a Lord who desires only the best, the life more abundant, for each of us. He died, gave up His life to save ours. What an awesome God we serve! The make up of the Body of Christ has such wonderful potential from the newborns in their mother's arms, to the old men wearing their conservative suits and ties. God calls us all, are we going to answer the call, and step out in faith to do His bidding?

The bride is not only beautiful, but you make it sound GORGEOUS. This post is a winner.

Thanks Crissy!

Fred, I hereby offer an advance apology for stealing your line and using it in a sermon. "Hung-over bridesmaids who think it's their wedding". That's a great line. Even if you got it from somewhere else, I'm going to say "I heard it from Fred".
This post, or thread, or whatever, ought to be required reading for pastors, church workers, prayer warriors, and pew sitters. And personally, I believe the proper response to the question should be, "What am I doing to prepare myself to meet my Betrothed?" We love to quote I John 3:2, which ends with the beautiful promise of being like Him and seeing Him as He is, but we need to go on to the next verse which says that everyone with this hope in him(her) makes the effort to make him(her)self ready.
...and didn't Jesus already address the "snobbery" issue when He spoke of the mote vs. the beam?
There are those whose office and task it is to monitor, guide, discipline, admonish, and yes, criticize the Flock. I am not one of them. Perhaps some day I will be given that office and task. I face that possibility with fear and trembling, knowing that those people will face much stricter judgment and be measured by an almost intolerably higher standard.
For the rest of us, we need to remember "With what measure you mete, it will be measured unto you again" - am I prepared to face the same parameters by which I assess others? My prayer lately has been, "As I would have mercy, let me be merciful; as I would have grace, let me be gracious"; and always, "Let the words of my mouth and the meditations of my heart (the more difficult part by far) be acceptable in Thy sight, O Lord my strength and my redeemer"

Perhaps imonk could teach us the Christ-like use of an obvious image of God characteistic, a sense of humor. I sit in church often at the threshhold of sublime, bemused and moved by the raunchiest, loudest voice wailing out some hymn about grace, loss and depth of love...

Is the source of humor the flaw or is it blind arrogance at personal failure to understand the gulf between myself and Christ?