When I delivered pizza in college, I had a rotten feeling everytime I went to a door that had a fish outside or one of those 'as for me and my house ...' plaques outside the front door.

Another guy I went to school with worked parking at what was then Starwood Ampitheatre in Nashville. He said his worst experience ever wasn't Metallica or the rock shows but an Amy Grant concert.

Maybe one day we'll get it.

On Sundays where I worked in high school you had to grab the tip fast because the Baptist wives would take part when the husbands walked away. It was a very small town so we all knew who they were. I guess they felt that the men over tipped.

Jared,

Why do you think it is that way with pastors?

I am a minister and I wonder sometimes what breeds such things among the clergy.

All of us can be rude, egocentric, etc........but it certainly should not be the rule of our life.

I wonder if it is the "job" that makes some men this way? Or their "supposed" authority? Self importance? Or that some ministers are just plain ole SOB's (sanctified, ordained, baptist :)

Bruce

Bruce, I'm not a pastor, but I'm seminary trained and was on staff with Campus Crusade for 12 years. So I think I can address it from the perspective of someone who has been in full-time ministry. I also waited tables all through college and have seen that side too.

Quite honestly, many Christians (pastors included) are just plain naive to the way the world works.

They truly think that 15% is a GOOD tip. They don't realize that actually, 18% is considered and average tip, and that the good tip range is 20%+.

The minimum tip expectation for "average service" went up from 15% to 18% several years ago. It wasn't overly publicized, but news reports, Oprah, etc., covered it. I don't think that a lot of people know that, or if they do, they ignore it because 18% is much harder to figure in one's head.

Combine that with the fact that your average pastor doesn't make a lot of money, and you have an un-informed, un-wealthy patron at your restaurant. Not a good combination.

The truly sad part of all of this is that the people who are leaving the lousy tips AND a track truly think they're doing a good thing.....which begs the question "What kind of uninformed, uncompassionate brand of Christianity have these people embraced?"......there's no way fathomable that any observant non-Christian would want anything to do with Christianity if that's what they think it's about.

Christians aren’t the only ones leaving low tips, it’s just more noticeable. As a Christian you are expected to be better than the rest and as a minister you are expected to be the person sitting in the restaurant talking nicely to your family and the wait staff. Could it be that at times you just need to be? I would think that it’s a lot of pressure to always be on in public.

Milly - you're right - it's a lofty thing to represent Christ - and tough to be "on" all the time.....which is why I would never in a million years put a fish on my car.

Baptist wives would take part of the tip when the husbands walked away? That's unsubmissive.

nhe, I never think of percentages when tipping. What is 18% of $25? 4.50--yeah, that's about right. But am I unique in forgetting or ignoring percentages?

I hope I'm not tooting my horn here, but I'll continue. What you said about never putting a fish on your car is one reason I've thought of putting one on mine. I am a good driver--defensive, within the speed limit, etc.

The theologically appropriate term here is antinomianism. It is a low view of law (works) based on a lop-sided understanding of grace. The mentality is "since I'm not saved by works, therefore they don't matter in any way, shape, or form." Many of us evangelicals cannot recount the ten commandments. We're very careless in our speech, our morals, our approach to laws in general, and our manners. Notice that the epistles often close with vigorous exhortations to live upright and exemplary lives. In Scripture such sanctified behavior is not optional for God's people and is in fact the true fruit that must and will accompany salvation.

Oh boy. . .

Tipping is one thing. You know, I've always considered myself a "good tipper" but I've been comparing it against the 15% standard. I wasn't aware of the 18% standard. So maybe I'm a just an average tipper.

We pray before our meals in public (quietly, but I'm sure waitstaff see that) so I sure hope I'm not part of the problem!

But - tipping aside, what kills me is when I'm eating with a group of people from church and (there's always one of these, seems like) one of them treats the waitstaff like they aren't there. Commanding without even a please, etc.

It's so easy NOT to be that way. Be polite. Smile. Don't be so stinkin' picky. Don't condescend.

I hope I'm not ever that way, although I'm sure I have been. But it kills me to think that every Sunday at noon there's a huge amount of "negative witnessing" going on to all the overworked, underpaid waitstaff in the country. I've heard too many of these anecdotal stories to not believe that's true.

We need to be kind to people.

Raindream - you're right - I'm not advocating buying a tip calculator off of Bob Sacamano (remote Seinfeld reference). I work off of 20% - since it's easy to calculate in my head. I shave a few cents off of 20% for below average service and and go up considerably according to the degree of good service. A waiter/waitress is going to REALLY have to have a bad attitude for me to go below 18 - 20%.

Since you're a good driver - more power to you on the fish - though I also think the fish has a very "cheesey" conotation to it - especially in the mind's of non-Christians.

You can call me a hypocritical Christian, just don't call me cheesey! - I've got issues. I know.

Damien - Amen.

Raindream,
That’s unsubmissive.
Have you been reading my blog? ;-]

I was unaware that the minimum tip standard had increased to 18%. Fortuntately, I've been tipping at 20% or above for years. I have had enough friends who waited tables to know that they live on the tips. Even when the service is below my standards, I'll still tip close to the 20%.

I like to think that I'm courteous to the people who wait our tables when we eat out. I always try to make eye contact and smile at the waiter and say please/thank you when appropriate. I also try to acknowledge them when they check in at the table - they're not trying to interrupt you, they're trying do their job.

"cheesy"

Meaning "uncool"?

Sorry, nhe, but you just tripped one of my hot buttons!

"I also think the fish has a very “cheesey” conotation to it - especially in the mind’s of non-Christians."

As a former non-Christian, I can tell you that most of them don't spend any time thinking about it.

We worry about things that don't matter . . . and miss the things that do.

"Fortuntately, I’ve been tipping at 20% or above for years. "

Ok, I'm starting to feel MAJORLY convicted!

However, I've got a family of six . . . 20% of one of our meals is a hefty amount. I think I tip more when it's just myself. But when the fam is eating out generally my tip falls somewhere between 15 and 20%.

De - from the server's perspective these days (from what my daughter's friends tell me) anything between 15 and 20% is considered an "average tip" - they take it off the table without giving it a 2nd thought. If they get one over 20%, they might comment to a fellow server - "I got a good tip there, they were nice". Anything ever at or below 15% will make them think "I got a lousy tip on that table".

I want to try if I can to make them comment positively to their fellow servers - I can do that by being respectful and low maintenance - along with leaving a nice tip.

Regarding Christian fish being cheesey - I was being a tad tounge in cheek there - but I think they are to some extent De, but I don't lose sleep over cheesiness.....I'm just in a phase where I'm surrounded by teenagers in my house who place a high value on "un-cheesey".

In general, I think that any time we use a symbol of some kind to promote our faith, we're taking a short cut and we are disrespecting the sacrificial nature of authentic faith.

Thus, I believe that I'm more respectful to authentic faith if I'm silent about my faith than if I'm promoting it with a trinket of some kind....however, something like a small cross necklace is nice and unassuming.....I know I'm in the minority on this one, but I've felt this way for a long time.

Going back to comment 3, Bruce, can I say "all of the above"? Really, I'm sure the reasons are as numerous as the individual hard-to-deal-with ministers. But in general, I'm guessing that the rude ones were used to preferential treatment in their churches and thereby developed a sense of entitlement. (Conflicts usually centered on discounts or "special breaks" they wanted that we didn't give to "ordinary" customers.)
---

De, not to increase your conviction, but I'm guessing a server has more to handle with a family of 6 than a party of 1. What if you were to tip a bit less when on your own but a bit more when out with the fam? Could you even things out that way and still properly honor good service on a family's meal out?
---

My tipping base has been 20% for a long time. A waiter would have to really go out of his or her way to irk me to get much less than that.
For those of you who are bad at math (like me), a simple way to figure 20% is to move the decimal point in your total bill one place to the left and then double that amount. Like this:
Your total is $24.68
Move the point over to get 10% - $2.468
$2.47 doubld is about 5 bucks. Add that to your total and you're good to go.

That's how I do it anyway. It beats trying to do the old school ratios in your head (if -- again -- like me you can't go all Rain Man with percentages in your brain automatically).

BTW, tipping is supposed to be done on the price of the meal pre-tax. Tipping is not expected on the tax. So, some of you have probably been tipping better than you think.

Church groups who ask for separate checks are usually the worst tipping tables. If the server is lucky, at least one of the people in the group pays attention to such things and makes up for his or her slacker brethren and sistren.

Jared, you've got a great point about waitng on families. I used to hate waiting on a family from my own church when I waited tables, because the kids took a lot of time to clean up afterwards, and the guy left a 10% tip (pre-tax, even). Ugghhh.... He was even the guy who taught me how to play guitar, but I hated seeing him come into our restaurant! But, our pastor gave a sermon and went off on bad tipping. He said something like "Tipping is a part of what you are paying for. Don't give me the excuse about not having enough money. If you don't have all of the money to go see a movie, you don't go. If you don't have ALL the money you need to go out to eat with service, then there is always Taco Bell." Never saw that guy in our restaurant again :)

Calvinator - I don't know anyone who tips pre-tax - do any of the rest of you?

If sales tax is 6% then you have reduced a 20% tip on $50 by 60 cents - so I guess the difference is not that significant....but tipping pre-tax just SOUNDS very cheapskatish to me....however, if everyone else is doing it, please tell me, so I can save some cash.

I agree about the church groups, in fact, when I'm out with the church youth, I try to gently remind them (if I can do it tactfully) that their server only makes between $2.01 and $2.15 per hour (usually).

I don't like the fish for cars either, though I like it in general. I especially dislike the fish with a cross near the tip b/c it looks like a dead fish. And I don't want to honk to show I love Jesus.

Milly, what blog? :D

Jared - I dunno. I've always felt like a good tipper but I don't know what my avg. percentage is. I just don't think it's 20%. I'll start paying better attention to that.

That being said, the extra work the waitstaff puts in with a family of six should be compensated by the fact that the tip is a lot bigger because the base cost of the meal is huge! :-)

But never having been a waiter I can't say that's how they really feel.

We used to have a fish on the back of our van but it froze off one very cold night in Nebraska. Never replaced it, so the "shadow" of the fish remained and probably made people think I had gone apostate.

This topic has been one of my hot buttons for many years.

I believe in treating folks the way I want to be treated. So it irks me when I see fellow brothers and sisters treating restaurant employees like a baby treats a diaper.

As a Salesperson...I frequent eating establishments with clients. Personally and professionally, I tip around 18-20%. My wife chastises me for over tipping. That's just b/c she is very tight with the money. And I appreciate that. I’m the Free Spirit of the family. (De-Joel Osteen announced that 10% was great tip. So don’t get too convicted. But then his theology is whack!)

I attempt to treat the wait staff with extreme class. (Lord knows what happens in the kitchen prior to your food reaching your table.) Seriously, I do it to be a great witness.

When it comes to prayer time with clients, I don’t pray to myself and exclude my guests. I start the meal once it arrives by praying/announcing to the group-“Lord, bless this meal.” I found this very relaxing to those that are Christians and comforting to those who are not praying folks that I acknowledge who provides the blessing. It is usually greeted with a few Amens.

Like De-my family prays openly at restaurants…thanking God for the food. Then we sing a few praise tunes…NO! I digress.

My family and I boycott restaurants on Sunday. We have been convicted about being part of the problem. That works for the Bear clan. One Sunday, my wife and I overheard that the Sunday church crowd was the worst crowd to Service. No tips and extremely demanding. That day, our waitress was stiffed by a table of Christians and despite that she gave us great service. My wife and I gave her our tip and theirs. We apologized for the table that stiffed her and we hoped that she would not see our Jesus in a bad light.

I don’t have any religious reference on my car. Because the one day I cut a driver off accidentally is the day the offended driver notices the FISH on the back of my car and gets steamed about Christians.

Don’t get me started on Christian athletics….OHHHH that topic burns me!

Joel Osteen said 10% is a great tip???? Seriously??

Does he know that most servers make $2.01 per hour?........just when I thought he couldn't sink any lower...........

Yes. I heard it in a sermon on TV last year(I was sick that Sunday and clicking channels).

Quote-"We noticed our waitress having a bad day so we left a tip 10%...a rather good tip..."

I tip post-tax - and don't forget that if you have coupons to tip on the PRE-COUPON total, not after you've taken the coupon off.

I still can't get over the Osteen quote.....upon hearing this, 4 IHops, 3 Applebees, and a Chili's - all within a 5 mile radius of Osteen's church just lost 3/4 of their server staff......

Like Jared, the folks I dreaded serving at the Christian bookstore were the folks who were on staff with a church or some ministry. Always, always looking for special discounts. I worked at a Hallmark at the same time and I preferred the customers there much more. It's a sad commentary on American Christians.

I tip post-tax and I generally round up generously as well.

Officially, if you look around or research, you are supposed to tip pre-tax. That's the official standard. But, in practice - who wants to figure that out?

And, usually, a couple on a date spends more on the meal than a family with several kids - especially on kids eat free night! But, couples on dates tend to get appetizers, their own meal (especially on first dates :), and a dessert each. Families tend to split the special, all drink water, no appetizers, no desserts (the kids usually act up enough to lose that priveledge), and half the time, feed some of the kids off of the plate they are splitting. I've seen plenty of family of sixes get out of the restaurant with just two entrees on the bill.

And I'll also seen them eat enough to feed a small army. ...

"I’ve seen plenty of family of sixes get out of the restaurant with just two entrees on the bill."

The portion-sizes at American restaurants are obscene. Seriously - this is one of my hot button issues (hey! I've gotten through two in one post! yes! :-) Go order, for instance, an OldTimer hamburger at Chilies - it comes with an entire basket of fries. And the burger is pretty big itself. In my experience, most people who order an adult-sized portion at a restaurant and eat it all to themselves don't finish it. Into the trash it goes.

I applaud people who don't waste food :-)

We have four kids, two of whom are teenagers - so the "two entree" rule doesn't usually apply to us! But sometimes we can feed most of our family on a Fajitas for Two order at the local tex-mex eatery (we've been going there for 12 years and they are always very friendly and seem to enjoy seeing us come around but this thread has me very paranoid, what with my sub-20% tipping and portion-sharing. Are they spitting in the guacamole?)

On the Osteen quote: to be fair, can we get a documented source on that? I find it very, very hard to believe that a guy who probably eats out as much as he does thinks 10% is a good tip. I just am wondering if you really heard that wrong. Maybe he said he added an extra 10% or something?

Just trying to be fair.

I too find that surprising about Osteen. Despite his flawed theology, I have always heard him talk about helping other and giving.

I found this from an article he wrote:

"Do you want another simple way of blessing someone? When you’re at a restaurant, be a good tipper. Don’t leave that server a dollar bill when you just spent thirty dollars to eat. “Well, I shared my testimony,” one person said. “I invited our waitress to church.” That’s fine, but don’t cancel your testimony by your miserly tip. God’s people believe in being good to people. We believe in showing God’s kindness wherever we go. When I tip people, I tell Victoria, “We’re going to sow a seed into that person’s life. Here’s an opportunity to bless someone with our words and our money.” When I leave that place, I want that server to be able to say, “That couple sure is generous. They are good to people.” Friend, love is seen in our actions. This world does not need to hear another sermon nearly as much as it needs to see us being good to people."

He goes on to say:

"Leave some cash in an unmarked envelope on the desk of that coworker that’s struggling to make ends meet. At the restaurant, buy somebody’s dinner and remain anonymous. Clean up the kitchen at the office and don’t tell anybody that you did it. When you
do things in secret and you don’t get any credit, you are sowing a seed for God to do great things in
your life."

http://www.faithbasedblog.com/docs/LifeNow_02-04.pdf

We are a family of six. I was a lousy tipper as a college student because I was "ignerrant". Then my brother, a server for many years, vehemently set me straight. I just didn't realize how little wait-staff receive as base pay!

We tip well usually more than 15% - and we definitely bump it up for great service. But I will say that there is a flip side. More than once we have seen a waiter or waitress roll his or her eyes when we order no alcohol... suddenly their eagerness to serve us drops a yard or two. No alcohol means a much lower bill - hence a lower tip... It's hard to tip generously when you've been ignored the whole meal...But then you get into grace territory I guess.

I worked as a hotel valet and doorman through college. It was well know that, as a rule, Christians were one of the worst tippers.

Raindream - Back in comment #7 you said "What you said about never putting a fish on your car is one reason I’ve thought of putting one on mine. I am a good driver–defensive, within the speed limit, etc." (although you later indicated you were not a fan of the fish on a car.) Think about this: You're tooling along defensively at the 55 MPH speed limit (in the right hand lane, right?) while traffic is averaging 68-70 MPH around you. To most of those folks whizzing by, your in the way - an inconsiderate road block jerk. Now, if there's a fish on your car, you're a Christian inconsiderate road block jerk.

I don't think any points one wins with whoever by having 'Jesus junk' on your car can offset the inevitable black eye for Jesus with someone, whether you're righteous or not.

Maybe pastors are poor tippers because they've learned their parishioners are poor tithers.

As far as car emblems go NOTHING beats my 19 yo brother. At one time he had a "got Jesus?" sticker on his rear window and AT THE SAME TIME had a pornographic calendar taped to his dash. I admonished him (in the loving way an older sis can) and told him one had to go. It was his choice which one could stay on. He ultimately chose to get rid of the naked "ladies".

WRT pre-tax vs. post-tax, it rarely has that much effect on me in the "real world." I don't try to tip precise amounts. I will round UP to the next dollar, unless I happen to have some quarters in my pocket.

For example, tonight, my wife and I went out to dinner for our 8th Anniversary. Pre-tax bill was $47 and change. After tax, it was $50.86. I gave the waiter $61.00. More than 20% on the pre-tax amount and close enough to 20% on the post-tax amount that I doubt the waiter really noticed.

NOW, if the server stiffs me part of my change, then I will reduce the amount of his or her tip. I can understand if the change is something like 7 cents, but a couple of weeks ago, a waitress shorted me 64 cents. This was at lunch, so my bill was only something like $7.36. She brought me back $2. Normally, I would have dropped $2.14 on the table, but because she had "robbed" me of some of my money, she lost 50 cents off her tip.

I went "agoogling" and discovered that most wait staff feel that it's okay for a customer to not tip for poor service, but also that "that great service leads to great wages."

A friend, who had been wait staff, advised me that I should always leave the tip in cash, not put it on the credit card along with the meal...that way, if the wait staff chooses not to count it as income, they don't have to. Sorry, I'm not going to base my actions on the assumption that folks are going to operate that way.

"A friend, who had been wait staff, advised me that I should always leave the tip in cash, not put it on the credit card along with the meal…that way, if the wait staff chooses not to count it as income, they don’t have to."

Another good reason to put it on the card :-)

I have to admit that though I've heard the anecdotes about how Christians are bad tippers, I've never realized it was such a universal phenomenon. Why is it do you think?

Is sanctification a lie, and we're really not becoming more righteous and holy than the world? (note: I don't believe this, but this is said without being said all the time. It troubles me - a lot. Shouldn't we be blowing people away with our good deeds?)

Is it because many Christians tithe and so perhaps don't feel as much impetus to "give" via a tip?

Is it because Christians are poorer than other people?

Or is it a plot of the enemy to get lots of tares in the church to thus drag down the good works the church was meant for? (note: this one doesn't sound as serious as I am about it - I've wondered for a long time if this isn't a concerted effort by the enemy. This is not meant as a cop-out or pointing fingers the other way, of course).

What other reasons could there be? There has to be some reason. So far everyone who's commented in this space is a Christian (as far as I can tell) - is it the majority of Christians who do this? Or is the bad apple just more noticable?

More questions:

Why are Christian businesses so awful to work for (if anecdotal evidence I've heard is the norm)

Why are Christians ruder, more arrogant, etc than other people? (ditto the anecdotal evidence).

Present company excepted, of course . . . :-)

But these are serious questions. And ones that trouble me A LOT. So any answers will be very welcome.

Please leave an answer if you have one (Jared, if I need to take this to a post I will. Let me know).

De-

You find it VERY, VERY hard to believe? When was the last time you were escorted off a plane? I find that behavior unacceptable from a family who flies as much as that family. Could they possibly have a warped view of the value of service provided to them? (DE-ooooh that came off way tooo strong...no offense intended.)

De-did you not think tipping at 15% was good for six folks? Why is it hard to believe that others might think 10% is a good tip? Could this thought be found in someone of Joel and Victoria’s position and stature? Just asking. I actually like what Matt Self wrong in #34. Hmmmm.

I mentioned the Osteen 10% quote(which I heard with my own ears-I kid you not) just to present that some folks may feel that 10% is a good tip. And to give De a reprieve in this tip debate. (The theology quip was outta line…my apologies.)

BUT it turns out De's a much bigger man than I in giving Osteen the benefit of the doubt. Good word, De. And truly merited.

But in fairness-I'm not exaggerating or making things up. I heard the sermon which Gina linked to above.

Gina's article link IS the sermon Joel preached. But the article is edited...that's the same story he told LIVE in a Sermon on Television and mentioned 10% being a good tip. Obviously...it was an adlib.

The only reason why I remember the sermon is because I found it hard to believe that Joel would consider 10% a good tip and his reference to sowing a seed. Pride kicked in and I actually thought-"Man I'm a great tipper." Unfortunately, that's all I took from the sermon. SHALLOW! I told myself to make note of the title. Because, NO ONE would believe me. But Gina found the article.

The 10% tip portion has been omitted in the article.

I'll buy the video(augh) and reference the quote for you. If I'm wrong I'll let everyone know. Honest.

Thanks Gina for forwarding the link to the article.

Ellen's correct the better service deserves better tips. As a former waitress you have to hustle and be nice. I also took into account that not everyone can afford a nice meal and a big tip. I've had some apologize for not tipping because they couldn't eat and tip. That's ok because I'd hate to have seen someone go unfed. I actually dated a guy that stiffed me on the tip. His sweet apology got to me. The ones that bother you are the out of control kids who trash the table then leave a dollar. 20% seems a bit much to me. Then again I’m not waiting on you Christians. :-}

Thirsty Bear - please don't misconstrue what I said: I never meant to imply that you were making things up. Please don't buy the video - it's not worth it.

my point was that people mis-speak all the time. And people mis-hear and mis-read. For instance:

"De-did you not think tipping at 15% was good for six folks? Why is it hard to believe that others might think 10% is a good tip?"

I never once in this thread said 15% was a "good tip". I said it was the baseline - and that good would have to be more that 15%. I may not be as good a tipper as many of you (and I'm evidently not as good as I thought I was, being unaware of the 18% base), but I'm not a lousy one either. :-). I'm probably average. And I'll work on that :-)

And I'm certainly not defending the Osteen's (reported) behavior on the plane. I never even brought that up.

I don't want to make this into an Osteen debate - even if he said that on the video I'd wonder if it wasn't just a slip of the tongue or a mistake. Or maybe he meant it - I dunno. But I think we should always err towards the benefit of the doubt. It just seemed ridiculous - if he really thinks 10% is a good tip, what would he consider an average tip? 5%? It just doesn't make sense, to me at least. Of course, I might be flat wrong here.

i'm actually a lot more interested in the Why's here. Why are Christians such lousy tippers/people (see my question in #38). I'm seriously blown away by that. For instance, several former waitstaff and delivery people have spoken of "dread" when serving Christians.

There has to be a reason for this. It flies in the face of the promises in the Bible, the promise of sanctification, etc.

I've been on the blogosphere for several years and this common thread keeps coming back up - what an awful people we are. I have heard it too much to dismiss it (even though my nature makes me want to dismiss it).

I want to understand.

Why are Christians ruder, more arrogant, etc than other people?

I don't believe this is true at all. I know far more gracious, kind, and charitable Christians than I do rude and arrogant ones.
I think there are far more rude and arrogant nonChristians in the world. The difference is the expectation. Hypocrisy is louder, I guess.

Christians are the most giving, sacrificing, merciful people in the world. They just tend to do their good work without calling press conferences or bringing along camera crews.

Why are Christian businesses so awful to work for (if anecdotal evidence I’ve heard is the norm)

Man is this a loaded question for me! I used to be the bookkeeper for my church (a pretty large church at that) and after 3 years I had to quit. If I heard the term, "If this were a corporation...." one more time I was going to rip my hair out. One day I was having a discussion with our Executive Minister and inquired why support staff was not included on a recent discussion b/c ultimately I think people at work just want to be heard. You don't have to take all the suggestions but people buy in when they feel they have been heard. His reply, "Do companies invite secretaries to the meetings??" I sorta mentioned how Jesus selected the guys that had basically flunked out of rabbi school and were told "go and pursue your father's trade" b/c they didn't make the cut. According to his logic (of only consulting people with degrees.....wait I rephrase...men with degrees) he just excluded most if not all of Jesus' disciples. My girlfriend works there and was recently given a .05 raise. She works about 15 hours a week. Boy thanks for that .75/week. She was told they couldn't afford anything more than that. I was started at a mere $8.00/hour when I started with the same reason. Well as the bookkeeper I was aware that our ministers were VERY WELL paid with our head pastor taking home a nice 6 figures. Now we are building a new church and I come to find we paid $100,000 for a chandelier yet we can't pay my friend $200 every 2 weeks while she is on bedrest trying to save the life of her unborn child. Yet just recently we had 2 ministers have to take time off for "personal reasons" and they were both fully paid. Does anyone else think it is unfair of church leadership to treat the support staff so poorly?? When I had my 3rd son I had to take maternity leave (unpaid at the church) and my husband had just lost his job due to relocation. I went to my church for benevolence to help pay my rent and my boss informed me he would "help" me by giving me a loan and then when I got back from leave he would deduct $50/pay. This is the sort of stuff that gives me a bad taste in my mouth. I continue to stay at this church b/c I love the people of the church. But if you are going to boast a 2,000,000-3,000,000 dollar budget than you had surely better be helping people. Our highschool pastor gave the message this weekend and he quoted this from The Message,

Amos 5:21
I can't stand your religious meetings. I'm fed up with your conferences and conventions. I want nothing to do with your religion projects, your pretentious slogans and goals. I'm sick of your fund-raising schemes, your public relations and image making. I've had all I can take of your noisy ego-music. When was the last time you sang to me? Do you know what I want? I want justice—oceans of it. I want fairness—rivers of it. That's what I want. That's all I want.

I almost stood up and applauded.

Mandi, re: what you wrote. It's a crying shame.

Jared - you wrote: "I don’t believe this is true at all. "

I don't either. But it's getting to the point that it's hard to ignore the weight of the anecdotal evidence. For instance, look at the first comment on this post:

When I delivered pizza in college, I had a rotten feeling everytime I went to a door that had a fish outside or one of those ‘as for me and my house …’ plaques outside the front door.

Another guy I went to school with worked parking at what was then Starwood Ampitheatre in Nashville. He said his worst experience ever wasn’t Metallica or the rock shows but an Amy Grant concert.

Why?

[De starts banging his head on the table . . .]

WHY? WHY? WHY?

Not that "De" needs me to defend his character, but I'm going to anyway!

Bill is one of the most generous people I know. That's one of the things that impressed me early on about him. He is very giving. He routinely invites old band members out and pays for their meals. Besides feeding his own family of 6, there are many times we have extras with us, and we are not eating at Taco Bell. Honestly, we didn't know about the 18%. Here in Texas almost everyone we know figures out the tip by doubling the tax. So, somewhere we missed the notice on Oprah. :-)

Seriously, it was bugging me that Bill was coming across as "one of those" because that is so not him!

Jill, he didn't come across as "one of those" to me. I know Bill as a very generous guy and probably the sweetest man I've ever met.

Heck, he never even cashed that check I sent him for that CD he made for me. And that would have made a decent tip on a dinner out. ;-)

I think the basic problem is that where Christians try to be frugal they end up being cheap. There's a fine line between frugality and cheapness. There are times when we're supposed to be generous - I think tipping is one of those times. There are times when we're supposed to pay for the value of a product we want - sometimes it's a sale price and sometimes it isn't. To demand a sale price all the time cheapens the value of the product and hurts the retailer's profit margin. I think some Christians think it's borderline sinful if they pay full price for anything. We take enormous pride in our frugality unlike our nonChristian friends.

Am I on the wrong track?

First of all, I have the coolest wife in the universe.

But I digress:

"Am I on the wrong track?"

Not necessarily. But I don't think this fully explains the universal downer stories I've heard from people about how waitstaff hate the after-church crowd, etc. etc.

De, regarding your question about why Christians do this/or are perceived this way, I think that Damien gives a very good theological answer in post #8.

I'd agree with him wholeheartedly there, and would add to it something I mentioned before - many Christians are naive by choice. They don't know how the world works, because they don't want to know.

These are the folks who don't get out much. So when they do get out, they tend to unknowingly make fools of themselves - bad tipping is just one example.

Here's another example that I see at premiers of "Christian friendly" movies all the time - like "Chronicles...", "LOTR", "Passion of the Christ", etc - you always can tell who in the theatre "doesn't get out much" - they laugh at moments that aren't funny, or at a preview or ad that everyone else in the theatre has seen a zillion times.

This may be a stretch, but I really think these are the folks who are also bad tippers. They isolate by choice, so then when they do venture out, they just don't assimilate well.......and if they have an immature faith, they don't represent Christ well.

jen... you mean it isn't sinful to pay full price?!!!

Excuse me, I have to go print out a Hobby Lobby coupon and stop by Goodwill...

De-Okay...we're cool. We always have been. My apologies for even bringing Osteen up. N'uff said.

I feel the pain. I grieve when I see the Church being condemned for a few bad apples or failures at any given time of a devout Christian. I, too, want to know-Why?

De concerning your questions-I get irked when I see fellow Christians being immature and rude/nasty to anyone. I’d say we notice it more because believers hold each other to higher standard and attempt to portray the best in Christ in all that we do.

The closer we come to Christ...the more He reveals our failures, sins, immaturity.

Outside the body, could it be a stereotype? Christians already labeled as the worst when it comes to tipping, athletics, arrogance, and hypocrisy.

I think we are condemned if we do or don't.

"Make it your ambition to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business and to work with your hands, just as we told you, so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so that you will not be dependent on anybody." 1 Thessalonians 4:11-12 NIV

I have a question. Do you put tips in tip jars?? We have these at every coffee house, ice cream stand, chinese restaurant, in town. I know the barista at starbucks isn't making $2.10/hour...so I sorta feel offended that they want me to tip IN ADDITION to the $5.00 cup of java I just bought. It is the same with Coldstone Creamery. I don't feel I should have to tip in addition to the $6.00 tab for one order of ice cream. Also, since we are family of 6 we often eat at buffets. Do you think I should still be tipping 18% when all the "server" is doing is clearing plates from a table?? Are they also only paid the $2.00 wage?

Now on a funnier note....One of my friends was cleaning her 6 yo son's room and found about $300 in it. There were just wads of cash stuffed all over. She knew that a 6 yo had no way of earning this money so she questioned him. She ended up finding out that everytime she laid a tip on the table after eating out he would grab it and put it in his pocket. She was mortified to think that all of those waiters/waitresses thought she had stiffed them.

"De-Okay…we’re cool. We always have been. My apologies for even bringing Osteen up. N’uff said."

No need to apologize. Like I said, I may be wrong.

Great verse!

Mandi - I'm with ya - the tip jar is a demonic conspiracy......the rule of thumb - if I'm standing at a counter or going thru a drive-thru (not dining in) I'm not tipping.

The exception would be if I go into a full-serve establishment for a takeout order - getting some lasagna to go at Olive Garden. If the hostess/waitress has to stop what she's doing to expedite my order, I'll tip a few bucks - I'm taking her away from serving her "dine in" customers.

All indications are that the staff at the Sizzler-Golden Coral-Ryan's type places are compensated far more than $2.00 an hour. A few bucks on the table is sufficient I think - though I really don't know what they make.

nhe,
Unless things have changed at Golden Corral the wait staff makes about what other wait staff makes an hour. Plus the tips are less because you as a guest have to do more. I was working into management with them. I was shocked when I first started working for them and shocked by the tips I had to set goals in order to make what I wanted in tips. Meaning I had to go way out of my way for the guest I was waiting on. I made far more working in a full service.

Thanks Mandi - I will take that into consideration when we're there. This makes me feel bad for those sweet little old ladies that work at the one by us. I hope they don't have to share their tips with bus boys, but I imagine they do. If you turn 5 tables in an hour at $2.00 per table, that's $12/hr. not counting tip-share and taxes - that's lousy - is that about right? Or did you do better than that?

I always feel like a glutton at Golden Coral (and lousy the whole rest of the day) so we don't go frequently.

.....err, sorry "Milly" I mean :)

I don't know why "Christian" companies are worse to work for than the rest . . . but I do know that now I seriously think twice about any job that involves working for a Christian company. Part of what drives me nuts about those places is the added hypocrisy. So your boss is a backstabbing, manipulative jerk - but when other people are around, she's nice and smiling and God blessing everyone.

On tip jars - I used to never put anything in. Then my little sister started working at Subway, and gave me a talking-to. She makes minimum wage, and the tips do make a huge difference to her. No - you're not expected to tip 20% (or 15%), but putting your change in the jar is appreciated. And she's had some pretty harsh words to say against stingy tippers. So now I'll normally tip somewhere between $0.50 and $1 when I go to a place that has a tip jar.

bws - no, it isn't a sin. ;-)

De - to your question about why the negative view of Christians, even though we all know most Christians really are nice people. I think the answer is, well, both complex and stupid. For one, people have different views of what rude is. Once, my pastor came in (he believes in tipping well) to where I worked. His waiter came back after he left and said "I can't believe that guy. I mean he left me a great tip, but he kept asking me soo many questions about my life. That hacks me off." My (non-Christian) boss actually rebuked the guy. "He was concerned about the eternal state of your soul, and your mad at thim because he has a different view than you? How unamerican." That shut the guy up fast. I think a lot of people bring in their hurts, fears, and insecurities with God or their own soul into their feelings about Christians. Then, one or two Christians walk in their flesh and are rude to them, and then the stereotype tags start flying. If we are visible about our faith, and do ANYTHING that someone disagrees with, it gets lumped into the "Christians are idiots" category. It doesn't matter if you even did something polite, like asking someone questions about themselves to show that you care. Or, if you do something legal, like drive the speed limit on the highway. To me, in those situations, people that get mad at you are getting mad for other reasons, and just attributing it someone to your faith.

Oh, yeah. Make sure you know who put the tip jar there. As a manager friend of mine said once "Tip jar? We aren't allowed to have those. I wonder where your money went..."

nhe,
Some tip out the bus boys. The place had made a lot of changes since I worked there. I always tipped out the cooks and bus boys in the event of large parties and huge tips if I felt that they earned it. Bus boys make more and we were to pre-bus the tables.

I do tip at buffets, but not as much. Typically ten percent.
But I also tip when I get takeout. But, again, not very much.

I do tip pretty well at my local Starbucks because I'm a regular and most of the barristas recognize me. They're not exactly crying "Norm!" when I walk in, but one girl in particular knows my standard order and usually has it waiting for me by the time I reach the register. Plus, I'm in there all the time and have talked to a few of the people in there about Jesus, so I feel like I should be generous in the spirit of good will.

The one place I get messed over tip-wise, though, is Sonic. I hardly ever have cash on hand, and the debit/credit card receipts there don't have a space to enter a tip. So even though the tip for the rollergirls who bring out the food would only be fifty cents or so, I usually have to stiff them for lack of change. I hate doing that, but I even once suggested they configure their receipts to leave a space for tips. The chick said that when they add the keypads to the menu sign thingies, there'd be an opportunity to do that. But they've got those things now and still no dice.
So, despite my good intentions, still no tips for the rollergirls.

Jen - On frugality: Christians need to understand what frugal is. Frugal is clipping coupons, buying on sale, shopping for better prices, buying cheaper brands - all good things. In all those cases, the seller has offered you a better deal, either better than his normal deal or the other guys deal.

Frugal is not cutting someone elses pay to ballance your budget. When you skimp on the tip, you are deciding that the food is on sale today, not them. Frugal means I get by with less, not that I make someone else get by with less.

You want to be frugal? Skip the drink and give the $1.25 to the waiter. Eat at Steak N Shake instead of Applebees and give the difference to the waiter. Order a burger instead of an entre and give the difference to the waiter. Or do any of those things and keep the differnce, just tip well regardless. Skimp on yourself not them.

Sorry Jen, not a rant at you, just a rant. I suppose I'm preaching to the choir too, eh?

Milly - I do tip more at Golden Corral b/c the servers bring me rolls, drinks, clean plates, clear the tables, etc. However at Hometown Buffet you get your own drinks, your own rolls, and your own plates so I usually only put 1-2 dollars on the table.
Another note about tipping jars...I worked at a chinese restaurant for 3 years during high school. One of them had a tip jar and I never got any of that money (even though I was the one helping them at the counter). This may not be true of other chinese restaurants but it was my experience.

Jared - I can completely understand your experience at Starbucks. If they know you and are giving you excellent service I don't think it is a big deal to tip. I just don't want it expected of me with a huge tip jar. One thing I do know is NEVER stiff your hairdresser on a tip. I always make sure I have an extra $10-$15 dollars on hand when I go to the salon.

It dismays me to think that Christians have such a poor reputation, but it's not really surprising. One person who ran a business (so I heard) required that any company which had the word "Christian" in the title was had to pay up front.

However, it seems to me that this discussion has very quickly spiraled into the arcane. I find it bizarre that there are all these unwritten rules about tipping, that unless you've worked in an industry, or have a relative in it who's chewed you out, you really have no way of knowing.

As for the church, we should treat people in any business fairly, and not consider a voluntary payment and an optional payment as equivalent in order to cheat people out of their honest labor.

But it seems to me that there would be a time when, due to some unwritten rule, a generous heart would be considered a miser.

I can see the justification for tips, being sort of a customer-driven commission for those in service industries. But I think there are occasions when the higher ups sometimes play upon the generosity of patrons in order to avoid paying workers more (and in such cases, sometimes the workers are induced to work at such jobs by unrealistic expectations of tip income). And that process carries over into jobs that are not what I would consider the kind of service-oriented jobs that would justify tipping, such as buffets (no offense to anyone who has worked at a buffet, but good grief-- a tip for taking my order and getting my drink? I'm having the BUFFET. I could get my own drink, just like the food, except your boss put the drink machine where I can't get to it).

Let me bottom-line this. No one hesitates to condemn the man who leaves a niggardly tip. But why not put the onus on the restauranteur, for example, to make plain the expectations? Doubt you've ever seen this in a menu:

"We pay our waitstaff $2 per hour. Please tip generously."

Kind of curt, I know. But why not this:

"We pay our fine waitstaff $2 per hour. We think they are really working to please you, and relying on you to pay them fairly is our only assurance they will represent us well. We respectfully request a tip of 20% on your total bill for courteous and professional service, and understand that you may adjust this as their performance exceeds your expectations. Should our waitstaff fail you in any way, please contact the management."

I'd be okay with that. So why does this whole thing have to hide behind hidden assumptions?

"Let me bottom-line this. No one hesitates to condemn the man who leaves a niggardly tip. But why not put the onus on the restauranteur, for example, to make plain the expectations? Doubt you’ve ever seen this in a menu:"

To be honest, the only time I see expected tip amounts spelled out are when it's a large party and they include the gratuity in the bill. And it's always 15%. Although there's usually a space to add to that.

That being said: some restaurants are starting to put little tip calculated amounts on the bill itself. Generally there are three of them - 15%, 18% and 20%.

One other point (and this is NOT a defense of low tipping, just an observation and perhaps a chance for grace from us all): being a generous tipper if you are single, or married with no kids, or with just one or two small kids is easier than being one with a large family (especially when you get to the point that your kids are starting to be taller than you are!). For instance, if I get a $10 bill at a restaurant when I'm eating alone or picking up my own bill while eating with friends, a $2 to $3 tip is pretty normal for me - that's 20% to 30%. Because why not? It's not much more that $1.50 or $2. But that is a different animal than feeding a large family and having a $40 to $60 bill.

That being said, my wife and I liked Jared's method and will probably start putting that into practice, now that we know the rules. (we don't watch Oprah so never knew ha ha =8-D

Bottom line: Grace, all ways, between eachother, to the waitstaff, to ourselves. Every one of us has a conscience. Tip what you feel is right, with an understanding of what waitstaff deal with. For God's sake, treat them kindly. Let's bear the name of Christ honorably, even though we will be judged and misconstrued no matter what we do from time to time..

Mandi,
Since you brought up hair-stylists, I've always wondered if the tip expectation is the same as for food services. I don't really know what sort of money they make, so I don't know if my tip is making up for a low base salary or what. Any ideas here? I do agree with you - the last thing I'd want to do is upset my hair-stylist! :o)

I also wonder how much the income tax creates the reliance on tip income in service industries. I wonder if the restaurants and hotels would just pay more for great employees, rather than force them to run down tips, if tips weren't so easy to hide from the tax man.

To the extent that's the case, the phenomenon of reliance on tipping for a majority of income is not created by the free market as the optimal solution to the problem of good customer service, but is just a tax evasion strategy.

As for taxes some establishments insist you claim all your tips while others let you claim only what the IRS requires. I had to make some claim more than they actually made at times because of the IRS. It would always more than even out where I worked because on good nights you made far more than what was required. If you fail to claim it your employer is required to pay you more, they hate that. I left a job because I knew that it would take too long for me to get a good following and Oklahoma passed the no smoking law. No more guys hanging around to drink coffee, smoke, and talk to the girl. No tips to claim, the company would have had a fit.

Milly - I don't completly understand your comment, but I know this. The IRS (At least 15 years ago when I was a doorman) requires you to claim 100% of what you make in tips. As a doorman, the hotel had a system where you could enter in the tips you made into the payroll system using your hotel ID and the electronic time clock. They would then take the taxes on the tips out of your check so you didn't have to deal with it later. Made for some small checks at times!

Anyway, I was claiming all my tips and the other doormen said I only was required to claim 10% of them. Hmmm, sounds good, so I called the IRS and asked them.

The IRS lady litterally laughed at me. "No, the law requires you to claim 100% of what you make." she said.

Of course the other guys wanted me to do as they did because I was making them look bad. If the IRS ever came a callin' they'd be busted. Not my problem.

If my employer asked me to claim more than I made so they could pay me less (if that's what you meant, I don't understand that), I'd refuse. I'm not going to lie for my benefit, why would I lie for theirs?

Because as your co-workers told said, you only actually had to claim a certain amount of money to keep the company from paying you minimum wages. You'd always come out ahead in the long run because you make more than that in most situations. If you had a bad night chances are that you needed a new place to work. I always made more than the required. Heck I worked in a 24/7 place that at times brought in less than $25.00 during the grave yard shift. I brought home more than that in tips. Gotta know how to listen to the drivers and keep the coffee filled. I also had a following of coffee drinking truckers.

As a doorman, my base was more than the minimum wage at the time. Same when I was a valet and Pizza guy.

I didn't realize that restaurants have to make sure you made minimum wage with tips. Still, I don't think I'd lie for 'em. I guess I might not last long, eh?

It's hard for some. The restaurant doesn't pay more than minimum for the wait staff. That’s not a lot. If you are supporting your family or going to school. I was seldom paid wait staff pay so I never really worried about it. I also had to do a lot more. Don’t feel sorry for them, if doing it correctly they can bring in a lot of money. I pulled in $100.00 one night on a party of about 30 people. That's $100.00 each. Two of us worked it.

Thanks so much for the post about tipping! I've been a waitress off and on for years.

It isn't just Christians who have a bad tipping rap (though they have a infamously bad one - and Christian tipping was the topic of a paragraph in "Nickle and Dimed" by Barbara Ehrenreich). I work now at a restaurant in the mountains which depends on the "locals" for our business 7 months of the year when the pass closes. Because they're in almost daily, and know the menu better than we do (as well as items that aren't served but are often kept around) they run us ragged with additions, substitutions, and splitting a plate of all-you-can-eat spaghetti. And they (and most elderly people in general) consider 10% more than adequate. I have been tipped $1.17 on a $60 ticket.

Waitresses in the Western half of the US by state law make minimum wage plus tips. I didn't wait tables when I lived in Texas because of the $2.15 an hour. At the place I work all credit card gratuities are taxed in my paycheck, and all cash has to be claimed, though I'm sure there are people who don't.

Here's a tipping consideration I don't think was mentioned above:

If someone "picks up the tab" for the table they often compensate by leaving a bare minimum tip. And extra dollar or two from the rest of the party is a nice gesture for the waitperson.

Several people mentioned acknowledging the waitstaff when they come to the table. Thank you! It can make a waitperson's entire day to be treated like a person instead of a commodity (and in some extreme cases, a prostitute).

If you must leave a tract, leave a generous tip with it. It will probably still be thrown in the trash unread, but at least the waitperson will think more kindly of your faith.

Thanks for all of you who do tip generously, treat the waitstaff kindly, and not leave a mess on the table.

The servers must love me when I go out to eat. My usual tab is around $35-40 on a 2 person meal and we always leave at least a $20 tip, and we are actually nice to our servers.. Pleases and Thank you's. We are agnostics though. You would think that the Church groups would be sweeter and more generous.