I make one proposition and I get wrapped up in all kinds of junk.

I'm Blue . . .

like jazz :(

Your problem, Jared, is you've become an addict to the crack that is the "guilt by association" association of bloggers. Seek help now or you'll turn into some version of me.

Seriously, I would much prefer these characters take the positive approach. Just publish a list of who is really saved. It ought to be small enough to get on a 3x5 card.


BTW- I'm not advocating a clown service, but I will say two things: A lot of youth ministry in the 70's and 80's did some clown ministry in the early days of creative ministries. We've had them here at the OBI chapel, and the very good ones did an unusually deep range of emotions in their skits, particularly capturing emotional themes like pathos and tragedy in an accessible way. "Clowns" don't always mean clown cars.

Second, I've been at more than one service where clowns would have been a really really welcome arrival. Please. Send 'em in. Quick.

Don't look now, but Dan Edelen just got drug in as well. Hide the children!!

[...] Jared is on crack. He needs help. I know. I’m hooked, too. Can’t look away and all that. Seriously…this is a freakin’ work of art, even by the amazingly insane standards of the “Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon” standards at Slice on Insinuation. It’s Lutheran Clowns to Willow Creek to…..Dan Edelen!! Who can be next!! Jesus was a clown in Godspell!!!! [...]

OK Jared, I was fine reading about your reading it unti they drug Dan into the muck. So I went toread myself.

That's 7 minutes of my life I'll never get back.

iMonk - Love that 3x5 idea. Priceless.

I was just thinking of Godspell! not that I think a clown-led service is a good idea. I think it's ridiculous.

What seminary did the clown go to?

Southwestern.

Clowns need God too.;-}

We've got a clown coming for a kids day in september in our church.

Maybe I should invite her to speak the next day in the sunday morning service. Then this clown (er, blogger) can use the fact that our church is affiliated with the Baptist General Convention of Texas, and the Southern Baptist Convention to malign all Texas Baptists and all Southern Baptists, and for that matter all the Baptists.

I will singlehandedly bring down everyone who's ever been associated with me. Beware thinklings, and thinkling readers beware. If you are associated with me...you are going down!

Excuse me, Jared, but if Willow Creek isn't promoting clowns, then why did they let Bozo speak at their last Leadership Summit?

Oh, wait a minute... that was Bono.

Nevermind.

You can see pictures here: http://purgatorio1.com/?p=497

I dressed as a clown for a church sponsored garage sale.... am I apostate now too? Please let me view the 3x5 to see if my name has been blotted off !

If the Willow Creek Association is just like "joining a bookclub", why do they require you to agree with their Statement of Faith? Don't you think there's something wrong when an organization would be concerned that a church have an orthodox view of the Trinity and then make allowances for that same church to have clowns lead worship? If WCA were just like joining a bookclub, there wouldn't be member requirements, and if there are member requirements - then why shouldn't they be called into question if they fail to require enough?

Tell me if this is out of line. I avoid this blog b/c the posts and comments are usually this way, telling from what exposure I've had to it. Harsh, critical, reminscient of the Emo Phillips joke about the jumper on the bridge.

Uh, Raindream, could you disambiguate the 'this blog' in your second sentence? That's not a slam on my Thinklings boyz, is it? I mean, they're "On Notice" and all, but every last blessed one of 'em, while occasionally wrong of course, are the very model of civil and enjoyable discourse. Say it isn't so, R-Dog.

Jim - Willow creek is not a church police program. How could they possibly know that every church who has membership with them is doing things in accordance to their beliefs?? If someone joins and says they believe those things WCA takes them at their word....that doesn't reflect poorly on them...but it reflects poorly on the individual church. I think it is similiar to Christians. If someone says that they are a Christian and I see them picking up a prostitute do I blame God or the church they belong to? Is it the church's fault for not stopping him (since when he joined the church he agreed to their statement of faith)? Would it be right for me to put down all the other people at his church for associating with someone of his kind?? We don't know that WC knows about this situation or maybe they do and a rebuke has already taken place. I think it is unwise for us to make assumptions. I'm reminded of that whole, "Love thinks the best...." type of thought.

Yeah, I'm all in favor of broad-ranging creeds and confessions, but I'm not sure how you can defend against something like that ahead of time. I don't think there's anything in the Westminster Confession of Faith about it, and arguably not even in our PCA Book of Church Order.

So I don't think you can fairly criticize the WCA for not having a "no clowns as preachers" rule.

I mean, a rule like that could be read too broadly, and decimate the ranks of the ministry . . .

Sorry, Joel. I was talking about the Slice of ____________ blog. I love the Thinklings. They could take me to school repeatedly, and I'd consider it a blessing--probably.

So I avoid Slice of ____ b/c the posts and comments . . . etc. I avoid BoarsHead too for about the same. heh, heh

Maybe that Lutheran church decided to just remove all pretense. This is the most hilarious thing I've read in a long time!

"So I avoid Slice of ____ b/c the posts and comments . . . etc. I avoid BoarsHead too for about the same. heh, heh"

But Raindream, the BHT has neither posts NOR comments.

I'm not sure what it is, to be perfectly frank. I'm stumped . . .

I avoid BoarsHead too for about the same.

Et tu, Book Boy? Et tu?

I had no idea this was going on behind my back.

All I can say is that while these folks have long memories, they seem to conveniently forget the facts.

I did clown ministry mostly to Down Syndrome and special needs kids. You know, the kinds of people some would prefer didn't exist. The kinds of people that make others uncomfortable because they can't speak except to grunt, or who run up to total strangers and give them hugs. The ones that don't often respond to long speeches about infralapsarianism.

Clowning has its place, like anything. I'm not surprised it's a Lutheran Church that Slice is gouging. Many of the people I knew in clown ministry were Lutherans. (Ask Lars, he probably knows a few.)

People seem to forget that the practice of clown ministry actually has roots in the Dark Ages Church and was regarded highly. Again, so much for memory and history.

I'd write a reply over at Slice except that my comments were routinely censored. I stopped reading a couple months ago because everyone is implicated when you start drawing the associations. Life isn't a game of The Last Man Standing.

That someone pulled out a comment I made there more than a year ago just amazes me. I can't remember what I wrote a week ago, yet someone at Slice remembers one short comment I left so long ago.

Makes you wonder.

I am not trying to stir up controversy, but I honestly don't get what Phil is saying here:

"Now, in all candor, I think Jared's own attitude and rhetoric leave something to be desired. One could argue that the shrill tone of exaggerated disdain in his post was a breach of the very kind of charity he was pleading for. There might have been a kinder and more constructive way for him to point out the fallacy of so many guilt-by-association (GBA) "arguments.""

Does anyone else reading this post think Jared was in any way "shrill" or "exaggerated"? I don't.

I was going to post on Phil's blog but he only allows comments from blogger users, of which I'm not. Phil - if you read this, it's OK to unreservedly agree with Jared now and then. I think his point was good and well said, and deals with a very disturbing trend in the Christian blogosphere.

Joel! I didn't know you were a PCA elder. I have new respect for you now.

Not that I'll read more of your posts, but I will look at them more respectfully now and will likely refrain from playfully disparaging the Butthead Tavern.

Also, I thought Phil's post overall was really good.

(and by Phil I mean Phil Johnson. I didn't make that clear)

"and will likely refrain from playfully disparaging the Butthead Tavern."

LOL!

[...] can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. :) You can leave a response, or trackback from your ownsite. [...]

Since someone has mentioned the BHT has somehow similar to Slice, I have to speak up.

1. The BHT routinely affirms and celebrates the church catholic.
2. The BHT routinely draws the circle of inclusion larger, not smaller.
3. The BHT does not "out" people by their association with whomever.
4. The BHT does not chase down book endorsements and play "Six Degrees of Richard Foster."
5. The BHT knows what satire is.
6. The BHT does not scour conference programs to see who is on the program with whom, and conclude they are endorsing one another.
7. The BHT does not believe it represents the true church and everyone else is under suspicion.
8. The BHT believes that reformed Baptists are saved---and lots of other Jesus believers, too.
9. The BHT thinks contemplative prayer is great.
10. The BHT would gladly sponsor a clown service.

I apologize that we don't have comments. Comment options are available at each post and are always open at my blog, internetmonk.com

I also apologize for those of you who can't follow the discussion. I wish I could remedy that, but it doesn't appear possible.

Finally, however the BHT got into this thread, I apologize for taking your time and space.

Hey iMonk,

I can't speak for anyone else, but any of my tweaks of the BHT in this thread were purely good natured joshin'.

I like the BHT, and enjoy reading it. Sorry if I offended.

Well now I'm getting mail! I wasn't wincing or whining. Just trying to insert a bit o semi-useful levity. Raindream used BHT and Slice in the same sentence, and that makes a hole open up in my universe. Sorry of I sounded like I wanted a feud. No way.

Well, if you want a feud ... ! Just kidding. I thought your comments, iMonk, were funny, not coming from a defensive heart, and unoffensive. Except the Reformed Baptists part--that was over the line! I have a list of statements you have made in the distant past, ripped from context and shown in the worst light for each, going out to 50,000 so-called Baptists right now. That smoke you smell could be an effigy burning.

It could also be the sausage on my stove--Yikes!

Great post. I don't have any affinity for "clown worship", but man! Those guys on the comment thread at that "Clown-led Worship" post are downright vicious! It's almost funny. I could get addicted to reading these blogs just for the humor and the shock value.

When I was in Highschool - 1978 - the Young Life staff at our HS in California showed up in full "Conehead" regalia as a gimmic to advertise the first Young Life meeting that year - first meeting had over 200 students - so it worked......thus, I think there is (at least remote, loose, indirect) precedent for clown ministry........

Do they squirt seltzer water at the people who don't raise their hands indicating either salvation or Lordship decisions during the altar call?.........at the very least, those people deserver the handshake shocker-buzzer thing.

No no no...the squirting selzer should be used for Baptisms!!

While I agree with most of Phil's post, his ability to see shrillness in this post,but mentions nothing of the poor research at SOL and their constant shrillness is somewhat baffeling.

{{{Candleman}}}

So I guess Cirque de Soleil is definitely not kosher.

This reminds me of the UCC church website dustup about a year ago. It got noticed by a mucky muck theological blogger and spread like a forest fire. (I could look him up, but blog wars are a dime a dozen now, it's late, and it's ancient history)

I credit the original mucky muck blogger, because once he read the news piece Spero News did on the circumstances and fallout, he had the decency and wisdom to correct his post. That church got some seriously nasty emails from bloggers with their knickers in a knot over a typo. And to this day, some bloggers that posted and sent missives wouldn't accept the truth if they got it full in the face from a seltzer bottle.

It was funny, but it was sad too - like clowns.