Well . . .

Okay, I agree with you. And I hate "yes, but"s.

But! :-)

Does this mean we shouldn't push for more worshipful worship?
I am struggling with this more and more each week at my church. I am convicted in that it shouldn't matter what they're doing, my heart should be in the right place. I should be coming to worship.

At the same time, however, I wonder if it should really be a struggle every week to do this. Should we say it's ok if a worship leader/team is just entertaining people, that they don't really get what worship is, and so it's up to the people in the pews to have the right heart?
Would we say that about preaching? It doesn't matter if the message is watered down, light on Scripture, etc., b/c what really matters is the heart of the listener?

I think we all ought to show everyone grace.
But I also am tired of the "rah rah", keep the audience entertained concerts that pass for worship.
Is it just me?

Can I say again that I agree with your post? When I check my heart I don't think I'm being proud or having a critical spirit. I think I really am concerned about he worship culture of our church. And so I struggle every week with telling myself that worhsip begins with my heart, not with what's on stage.
But at the same time I don't think it's prideful or unnecessarily critical to expect worship leaders to lead people into worship. What i guess I mean is, there really is a problem if worship has to occur in spite of the worship leaders.

"I think what we need to do is just worship." AMEN

All of us, worship leaders, preachers, nursery workers, and congregates--we all need thoughtfully, whole-heartedly worship the Lord. And sometimes that means pulling the worship leader aside to say "All in All" is a lame song. Of course, the guy will have to take comments with a grain of salt, but, Jared, your concerns are very important. Worship leaders must be the most humble performers in the church. We aren't here to be entertained. We're here to worship the Lord who loves us more than we understand and asks from us more than we are ready to give. A worship leader must pray and work to usher in that attitude.

An interesting note, I heard a family in my church say they could not find a similar worshipful attitude in any church they visited while they are out of town for a few years. I'm sure taste plays a factor, but prayer, theology, and submission by the worship leader is vital for that kind of attitude in a church.

"But at the same time I don't think it's prideful or unnecessarily critical to expect worship leaders to lead people into worship. What i guess I mean is, there really is a problem if worship has to occur in spite of the worship leaders."

I completely agree. We agree with each other, and your concerned attitude is not what I was posting against in this post.

And, for the record, I don't have a problem with the worship leaders at our church - we don't have, I believe, an entertainment motive. I may not have made that clear enough. The problem yesterday was with me.

"And sometimes that means pulling the worship leader aside to say "All in All" is a lame song."

What part?

"You are my strength when I am weak". Yeah, totally lame. Who needs God's strength? I'm never weak.

"You are the treasure that I seek." UnBiblical! When in the Bible is Jesus compared to a treasure?

"You are my all in all". Nonsense.

"When I fall down you pick me up." - well, would be true, if, of course, I ever fell down.

"When I am dry you fill my cup." - What's with this cup metaphor? He just picked cup because it rhymes with up.

"Jesus, lamb of God, worthy is your name" - Lame, lame, lame! Jesus was a manly man, not a sheep.



OK, That was very snarky of me. But I don't think "All in all" is a lame song. I just think you don't like it. Which is fine, but why state something subjective as objective truth?

That song has been a true worship experience for me, in the past. It's a bit dated now, but I consider it one of the good ones.

This is my point. Just because I don't like something doesn't mean that it has no worth. While you're sitting in the audience, smirking your way through "All in all", there may be someone standing half a row away who has fallen down and who's cup is dry, who is crying out to God through that song.

I like that song.

I think Raindream might've been using that as an example, though, since that's the one the dude in the original post was picking on. I dind't read it as that being Raindream's real opinion necessarily.

One thing that irked me is the original dude saying "treasure that I seek" is a nonsense platitude, when Jesus himself spoke of the pearl of great price.

The song seems to draw on some pretty Scriptural motifs for its images, in my opinion.
It's not a favorite song of mine, but it sure beats a lot of the stuff that could be picked on. Seems odd to pick on this particular one.

Well, I have to confess I don't care for the song, but not because of its Scriptural themes. As you say, the ideas are good, but the lyric is simplistic. "Seeking You as a precious jewel,
Lord to give up I'd be a fool" That isn't a classic lyric. It won't rank up there with "Great Is Thy Faithfulness."

But I wouldn't complain about it myself. I might complain about "I want to be a history maker." I think some leaders in our church complained about Michael W Smith's "Above All," the questionable lines, "You took the fall And thought of me Above all," being too centered on men.

Well, I don't think "Great Is Thy Faithfulness" is a lyric for the ages either, so there. :) (Though I have to say, I like it much better with Fernando Ortega's tune . . .) I'll agree that "You Are My All in All" is a simple lyric, and not without its flaws--but simple does not necessarily equal simplistic. There are some pretty simple lyrics in the Psalms, too, you know. (I do agree with you, Raindream, on "Above All," though--which isn't Smitty, btw, it's Paul Baloche.)

More generally, though, I think De and Jared could get together and teach a really good class for worship leaders. Right on, both of you.

"That isn't a classic lyric. It won't rank up there with "Great Is Thy Faithfulness."

Well, I'd agree. But that doesn't mean it's not a worthy worship song.

Psalm 150 doesn't hit great heights of complexity either.

I totally understand you not liking that song. But I'm with Jared - it has scriptural underpinnings that are pretty solid and there are plenty of other songs that probably could be called out. (There are lots of hymns also that are suspect).

"I might complain about "I want to be a history maker." I think some leaders in our church complained about Michael W Smith's "Above All," the questionable lines, "You took the fall And thought of me Above all," being too centered on men."

I agree.

And I'm not above having complaints. We sing a song now and then that has this line

"I would run for 1,000 miles
If I knew every step would be getting me closer to You"

Um.

I have a Lot of trouble singing such a boastful line about myself and my own spiritual hunger, which is nowhere near what that song portrays.

But, again, I just think grace is needed, in all things. Writing a post about how praise music stinks just doesn't seem like the right response.

"All in All" isn't a lame song. But I think it's a target because of its popularity-- and it does have something of a jingle quality to it. But I don't necessarily see that as a criticism. At some points in Paul's letters he appears to be quoting from early Christian credos. It doesn't take much to imagine those being set to song by early believers.

I think some of the more traditional crowd want songs with more, err, gravitas to them.

Although I agree that this song has a lot of scriptural motifs, and it's precisely the kind of song that traditionalists (to the extent that the concerns are biblically-derived) should be happy with.

That said, I think a diet of "All in All"-type songs is deficient in certain respects. Of course a diet of only metrical Psalms is deficient as well. The former doesn't give you sustained reflection and movement through the range of emotions that is found in the great Psalms. The latter doesn't give you anything sticky (i.e., short & catchy) enough for it to stay with you during the week.

I like the song okay...it has some fun harmonies. But I always want to say "You are the coffee in my cup"

But considering how I feel about coffee, that's high praise.

ok!

Here's what I try to do as a worship leader (and just so you know where I'm coming from - I lead a band in a non-denom. Christian [restoration movement] church of about 400 in a rural community in Indiana).

- Balance. Everything from Kool-Aid to t-bone steaks. The words have to be kosher but there is room for every level of spiritual walk here.

- Be real and not be up there for the sake of mere entertainment.

- Be good enough in what we do to hold the attention of people.

- Present the Gospel every week.

- Worship (i.e. 'I need to worship to lead worship')

Awesome Daniel!

The one that gets me is "I am a Friend of God".
Here are the lyrics, in their entirety:

Who am I that You are mindful of me

That you hear me when I call

Is it true that You are thinking of me

How You love me

It's amazing

CHORUS

I am a friend of God,

I am a friend of God,

I am a friend of God,


He calls me friend

I don't know if somewhere in the Bible there is a verse that elaborates on this. But we sing this one (too often for my taste) and I find it hard to worship God when I'm singing about *myself*.

Agh. I know this wasn't supposed to turn snarky, but our church doesn't have a "worship leader", just a few who take the rotations. And I happen to know that some of them pick the songs because "This is a cool new song, I like it!" as opposed to the message of the song. It's like a jam session. I don't pretend to know what it takes to be a worship leader, I can barely pull off a Sunday School class. But I TOTALLY hear what you're saying, De. And sadly, I'm familiar with the situation Jared describes.

Cara, I have to admit that I don't much like that song either.

I think the song is somewhat based on this passage: "No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you." - John 15:15

"And I happen to know that some of them pick the songs because "This is a cool new song, I like it!" as opposed to the message of the song"

It's a big problem in worship set choosing. I've been guilty of it myself.

Such a complicated issue. Why is it that people accept the need to serve others in their Christian walk, but when it comes to music, they want to rule, and have what they want? Why is it that people understand worship as being primarily something that happens when they sing, but not when they pray - or hear God's word explained - or go to work on Monday? Have they muddled it up with "praise"? Why do we insist theologically on the priesthood of all believers, under Jesus, our great High Priest, and then need a worship leader to bring us "into the presence of God"? Why is our singing done before we hear God's word explained, rather than in response to it?

Just wondered ... questions for me, as much as anybody else ...

I agree the title "Worship Leader" is confusing.
Worship is related to the hearts appreciation of what God has accomplished by His Son, as prompted, guided and directed by the Holy Spirit. I can understand that in a large group some coordination is required.

The lyrics are important (Many statements in the Scriptures ie Friend/ Brother are not reciprocal) as too the tempo, staying in key etc etc.

We have to recognize that some do not have a tune in their heads but as the Psalmist says "Let everything that has breath Praise the Lord", weighed against Paul writing to Timothy "Let everything in the church be done decently and in order"

De's original question "how much worship is happenning?" is interesting.

If the leader tries to drum up the praise and worship, it feels to me a little like trying to start "the wave" at a ball game - about half the crowd will do it (with varying degrees of enthusiasm) and the other half of the crowd will be completely indifferent. In this way, worship mirrors life and where are heart truly is.....at least in part.

The other part is that some people just don't like to be expressive in their public worship. They would rather stand and reflect and/or pray quietly, which of course is still worship.

Good energy upfront translates to good energy in the congregation, but I don't think there's much of a magic formula beyond that. Sometimes, when the leader appears to be really into it and worshipping, I get a little intimidated like I'm not at his level, or not grasping the meaning in the song like he is, so I don't think that the worship leader worshipping necessarily translates to the congretation worshipping....though the worship leader certainly must lead by worshipping.

When it comes right down to it, how much worship is really going on is equal to both how prepared the hearts are and each member of the congregation's public worship style/comfort level.

Whew! I wondered why I felt like the old tv show - American Bandstand music critics when we sang "I Am a Friend of God" - it seemed so NOT worshipping. Good beat and I guess you can dance to it (we are not a church body that approves of dancing in the aisles) - but it doesn't lift up and adore God. Love the differentiation - if it isn't heretical then it is a matter of taste. Having spent much of my life in "traditional" worship - I find the combination of hymns and contemporary music wonderful - and I have to keep working on my tendency to criticize choices (being a critic makes me think I'm smarter than I actually am). Good topic - worship leaders have a lot of congregational input and much of it is silly.We differ in what pushes our buttons worshipwise - but we ought to be in the fold of WHO pushes our buttons. I loved it when our pastor pointed out that we are not there to receive but to give back to the Lord.

What are your thoughts about singing "America the Beautiful" during worship, as our church did this past Sunday to recognize the July 4 holiday.

The only reference to God is:
"America, God shed His grace on thee, and crown thy good with brotherhood from sea to shining sea."

The song, in the first verse, seems to worship the land of America; its skies, grain, mountains and plains.

During this song, how much worship is actually happening?

I've got zero problem with that Quaid.....I suppose because of what wells up in me when I sing "America the Beautiful".....it celebrates God's goodness to this country, and when I sing it, I'm in awe of Him.....its a little different than singing Lee Greenwoods "Proud to be an American"........which also wells up something - but that's more national pride than Romans 1 general revelation. I think there is difference.

At least, for me, America the Beautiful is much more worshipful than the previously mentioned "Above All" and, for my money, "Heart of Worship".

We don’t sing or recognize those holidays in our church. Easter and Christmas are recognized now but there was a time when that wouldn’t have happened and still doesn’t in may of the churches of our kind. I did think about setting the worship slides up in red white and blue colors to see if anyone noticed. I realized that it isn’t what it’s all about.

I think most of us agree that some song get to us and others don’t. We have to realize that it’s not about us.

This conversation gets interesting. :-)

nhe, "Heart of Worship" is not a favorite of mine either, but more for the music, I guess. I didn't recall the lyrics exactly, so I looked them up just now. I'm interested to know how you find this song less worshipful than "America the Beautiful." The gist of "Heart of Worship" appears to be that nothing matters but Jesus, that even the song itself is nothing compared to Jesus.

I like that message a lot and wish more songs would reflect it.

Amen to De's original post, not that I don't share the concerns of Jared and others sometimes. I hated one song that the youth in our old church wanted to sing all the time because I found it almost impossible to worship while singing or listening to it, and I doubted if anyone else was worshipping. The lyrics were inconsequential, and the music moved some of the kids to do the bump while singing. What's a would-be worshipper to do? Not that I'm always a woud-be; that's why it's medium important what tha music is and says. I need help to worship from the musical selections, not hindrance.

You're right Jared, the words to "Heart of Worship" are solid....but, like you, I'm not a fan at all of it musically.

Mainly though, since the song appears to be about repentence, I'm just bothered by the fact that it never seems like anyone around me is repenting when we're singing it. It is similar, I suppose, to the point made earlier about "I would run for 1000 miles....." It feels awkward for me to corporately sing a song about repentence when no one (including me) is in repentence mode.

Conversely though, I'm compelled to raise my hands when singing "God shed his grace on thee"....not because America is great, but because He is.

it doesnt really matter who sings old hymns or praise and worship its not unto people its giving God the glory, its a personal thing, God judges the heart of souls. so we can quarell about it makeing it a big issue it doesnt matter quite naturally, way back when old songs had a lot of meaning back then if we would pay attention, we always want a song to hear to make us feel good and get the willys. some of the old songs probably was a little boriing, believe me when i listen to a song i havent heard in a while like mahalia jackson,shirley casear,to name a few something click inside me saying oh thats what that song means to me, its always a message thats behind the song that matters, not the song to get the willys.praise and worship is awsome too may i add. God gives us a message through a song that we may not like or sound good,he can give us messages through children,t.v. the animals but u best believe if we dont catch it and start listening we will definitly miss the mark sort of speak. sometimes i wake up with a song i havent heard in in so many years will blow my mind. listen up saints pay attention stop talking so much and start listening to whatever song God gives us as a message or u will miss the point. wake up and stop the bashing life is to short for that, we are grown adults, if it aint the songs its the competions with church to brag on what pastor preaches the best. get with it church and start listening and be quiet.i learn from experience not from a book.

i learn from experience not from a book

You don't say. :-)

Well, and it's an interesting story behind "Heart of Worship," too, as I've heard; the leaders of Matt Redman's church (including him, I'd imagine) became convicted that their music had become an idol, and that they were singing but not worshiping--so they shut down the music, stopped doing anything at all, so that they could address and repent of their idolatry. "Heart of Worship" is the song Redman wrote as an expression of their repentance (though obviously not until they started singing again).

And as for "America the Beautiful," you're probably working with a truncated version. From the full text, I'd also add "America, America, God mend thine every flaw, Confirm they soul in self-control, thy liberty in law!"; and "America, America, May God thy gold refine, 'Til all success be nobleness, and every gain divine!" I do have a problem with "O beautiful for patriot dream that sees beyond the years thine alabaster cities gleam undimmed by human tears," though; this is still the city of man, not the city of God.

I didn't realize Redman wrote that too.....I normally love what he does. I think that "Heart of Worship" should be saved and broken out for corporate revival.....it just doesn't flow for me in the context of a worship time.

Quaid,

I have/had mixed feelings about America the Beautiful. But it was done as an outro, basically - and it's a lot better than other July 4th services.

I sincerely dislike "God and country" days. They lose me right at "God and".

About Heart of Worship - one of my all time favorites. I like the music too, but as a former leader of student worship bands, that song exactly mirrored what I wanted my heart to desire - to make it all about Jesus.

The line that demolishes me is "longing just to bring something that's of worth that will bless Your heart". Knock me over in dust and ashes - the enormity of God's grace and the fact that I even can stand before Him in my weak attempt at worship . . . words can't express. I pray that somewhere in the seven years I served as a worship band equipper that there were even just a few times that what I brought to Him was something of worth that blessed Him.

"King of endless worth, no one could express how much you deserve. Though I'm weak and I'm poor, all I have is yours, every single breath." - it's a statement of truth that just nails it, even if we don't always live that every single breath is God's (it's true nevertheless).

I can't say for sure, but I think that song may resonate more deeply with worship leaders because, my gosh, keeping a heart of worship that is truly all about Jesus is a battle.

But, in keeping with the spirit of the post, I think it's totally cool some of you don't like that song :-)

I'm with you, De.

I’m with ya De.
I work very closely with our worship team so I hear not just our whining but their whining. When I first heard the song it was as if someone had punched me and yelled “Look you are getting it wrong!” I listen to this song a bit and have the words handy to remind me it’s not about me. At two am Sunday morning when I ‘m working on stuff for them it’s good to know why I’m doing what I do. We sing a cappella so the words are all we have.

Well, it's clear to me that all you still approve of "All in All" are living in sin. I'll try to shine my light of righteousness into your dark hearts for your own stinking good and no pleasure of mine, I assure you. heh heh

I had to look up "Heart of Worship." I think we've sung it in our church, and I haven't thought a thing of it. I'll tell you one I've heard on the radio which would make me groan to sing, "Shout to the North" by Martin Smith. At least by the way it is sung on the radio, it is far too long for so few words.

I should say that when I'm at church, I don't criticize the songs or prayers unless something big jumps at me, like singing "Shout to the North" 10 times in a row or "Brokeness is what I long for/ Brokeness is what I need." The songs that stir me go like this:

Gracious God, my heart renew,
Make my spirit right and true;
Cast me not away from thee,
Let thy Spirit dwell in me;
Thy salvation's joy impart,
Steadfast make my willing heart.

But while I'm there singing with others, I listen and follow my directors. Like you've said, I want to worship. I don't want to complain.

"Shine, Jesus, Shine" is a favorite too.

Heh, Rain - "Shout to the North" . . .

Ok, I'll break my rule and pick on a song for a bit :-)

That song always makes me feel like I'm in a portside bar somewhere with a big mug o' guinness to hand.

You have to swing your imaginary mug as you sing it

SHOUT . . TO . . . THE NORTH AND THE SOUTH.

ARRRRR MATEY!!!!

De, I just realized that your description of that song is exactly what I like about it!....the idea of swinging a stein in praise has some appeal for me........is that wrong?

"is that wrong?"

Only if you fail to say "Arrrr Matey".

Shout to the North is one of those songs that fails in its music as well as its words. Though words are easier to criticize in this forum, some praise songs have decent words in weak music. Like shouting to the North and singing to the East that Jesus is Savior to all. The worst part of it may be that the music is nutrition-free. The same notes are repeated three times in one simple chorus.

Do you remember another of Michael W Smith's songs which ends in several amens? His musical texture in that repetition is gorgeous, making it wonderful in my opinion. I heard the same song sung by a quartet or ensemble with less texture in the amens--it sounded terrible.

Another example, I think the first time I heard "These are the days of Elijah" I appreciated the Scriptural points in the words, but did we have to leave out the melody altogether? Much later I heard Twila Paris sing it on the radio, and I enjoyed it. I think her voice carried it. (She has sung some pretty repetitive songs which only occasionally get on my nerves.)

Perhaps what I've said here is mostly taste, but musical richness isn't simply taste just as good cooking isn't simply pandering to a crowd. I think the church should educate its people on rich music, even if only a little.

I REALLY like that "Shout to the North" song. We've never sung it church (which is surprising, because we seem to sing everything) but somehow, it doesn't seem like it would be appropriate to sing it in church.

Maybe if I heard it sung in church, I wouldn't like it.

I agree with you RD. My daughter is a voice major in college and she's educated me quite a bit. She really likes that Celtic Women group - she played a few of their songs for me and she showed me how when they all sing the same note, they have perfect pitch. I wouldn't notice that stuff on my own, but I definitely appreciate it.

The thing I appreciate about "Shout to the North" is the verses; like "Blessed Be Your Name," it's a praise song which acknowledges and incorporates the difficult times and the struggles of life. (Any coincidence both were written by Brits?)

Too bad I'm so late to this thread. It's a good one.

My 2 cents:

You can't get theological depth by sticking with the CCLI top 25. You have to work for it.

Second: The word "worship" never appears in context with music in the Bible, except at the dedication of Solomon's temple. Then it was the choir and band performing, and the people worshiped. People worship when they come into the presence of God. People praise with music. We also admonish and teach with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs.

As a worship leader, I need to remember that it is NOT my job to make people worship. It is to help provide a context for praise. I depend on God to show Himself to people.

I feel so inclined to comment. You know how I feel about most new Christian music. . . but I'll refrain. Basically, I agree with what you said in the blue box--that the best thing to do is worship. I am, however, very good at criticizing and evaluating--not sure about the pompous elitism.

I love many types of worship. (here it comes) However, I do think that the pitch and decible level's can really destroy the term 'Worship'.

Worship leaders think there voice is the only good voice in the church.

Turn down your speakers and amp's please.
Please Please

Slightly off topic - I wish churches would also write more original songs.

Even if they aren't as polished or professional as the store-bought stuff, they would be an expression of worship created by the people themselves, and I'm sure, would be more cherished for that reason alone. The pastor could vet them for theological soundness if necessary. (Do we even do that with other people's songs?)

The greatest hymns and songs of praise are those that come in response to an authentic encounter with God, or meditation on Him, not purely a desire or need for "new songs". I think this accounts for the staying power of some of our most popular music.